We should switch to metal spacers

discussion of design changes / improvements / suggestions
WillAdams
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Re: We should switch to metal spacers

Post by WillAdams » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:53 am

Tobias wrote:Well, just for the looks, could make the spacers to customized lenght (instead of using two) and polish the aluminium :3 I guess that spacer size is a common size? Don't really buy stuff like that so often, and in metric size the measurements just sounds silly :P
Heres a drawing I made for fun with metric measurements. http://db.tt/3dXUAjXd (hope link works.)
The spacer size an old, imperial standard size #8 or #10 --- one wish I had for the next iteration of the ShapeOko is all metric hardware (and I say that as a man who prefers imperial and uses points and picas).

The drawing looks good! You should add it to the wiki.
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Tobias
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Re: We should switch to metal spacers

Post by Tobias » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:39 pm

Sorry to say, but I REALLY dislike the imperial system. Would problary dislike the metric if I were not born in a country that uses it. I have to link to this tho :P http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ijNPdg-6FxM/T ... 5_460s.jpg

Thank you :) Well, I'm not sure where to. Under the hardware section? Also, I'm not sure about the tolerances, so just added some on the lenght that would seem appropriate.

Edit: Also, since I work as a CNC operator, I daily use drawings with metric measurements :)
ShapeOko #1758 with a few tweaks here and there.
I work as a CNC Operator (No mills, just lathes in different varities like Y axis and 5 axis), so have access to very good lathes.

WillAdams
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Re: We should switch to metal spacers

Post by WillAdams » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:48 pm

The imperial system is one matched to human experience / scale --- dividing into 3rds is easier and almost always even when one adds points / picas or an architectural rule w/ twelfths, 180 degrees between freezing and boiling closely matches the human ability to differentiate temperature, &c.

It drives me crazy at work getting page design files from metric countries where the gutter in a 3 column layout is some bizarrely long decimal.

Agree, linking in your CAD on the Parts page under the hardware section ( http://www.shapeoko.com/wiki/index.php/Parts#Hardware ) would be a good fit.
Shapeoko 3XL #0006 w/Makita RT0701 Router w/0.125″ and ¼″ Elaire precision collets
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Tobias
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Re: We should switch to metal spacers

Post by Tobias » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:05 pm

Well, if we (rarely) get a imperial measurement, it's a silly number. Like 4.88mm hole in my drawing is a rounded number. You rarely see that in a metric drawing (for this kinds of parts ofcourse). Most normal are drill bit sizes divided in 0.1s. Like 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 and so on. So a 4.9 bit would be used here.
But I can see that if you are to use a 4.9mm to inches, that would be 0,1929133858.... inches.

Point is, 4.9 sounds logical here, and I guess 0.192" sounds logical over there, but both converted is really irritating to work with.

I added the drawing in there indeed :)
ShapeOko #1758 with a few tweaks here and there.
I work as a CNC Operator (No mills, just lathes in different varities like Y axis and 5 axis), so have access to very good lathes.

cvoinescu
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Re: We should switch to metal spacers

Post by cvoinescu » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:34 pm

Tobias wrote:Sorry to say, but I REALLY dislike the imperial system. Would problary dislike the metric if I were not born in a country that uses it. I have to link to this tho :P http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ijNPdg-6FxM/T ... 5_460s.jpg
That link is really misleading. It's true that there are 1760 yards to a mile, but that's not the whole story. It's more like this: there are 5.5 yards to a rod, 4 rods to a chain, 10 chains to a furlong, and 8 furlongs to the mile. Those are all nice small numbers, not something ridiculous like 1000 or 1760. Who cares they're all different, that there are alternative subdivisions that don't mesh with the others at all (100 links in a chain), that there are other units with specific uses (the fathom, 6 feet, used only for depth of water), and that, for %*$#'s sake, one of the factors is not even an integer? :roll:
Proud owner of ShapeOko #709, eShapeOko #0, and of store.amberspyglass.co.uk

WillAdams
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Re: We should switch to metal spacers

Post by WillAdams » Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:17 am

My complaint about the gutter measure is it's a bizarre decimal in metric --- happens quite often when dividing into thirds in a decimal system, which is why typesetting is easier and more consistent when using points and picas.

Rods, chains, furlongs and miles are each used for different purposes, it's a happy interaction that they fit together one to the other.

Thanks for adding the metric spacer files --- maybe ShapeOko Mk. III can be all metric.
Shapeoko 3XL #0006 w/Makita RT0701 Router w/0.125″ and ¼″ Elaire precision collets
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Tobias
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Re: We should switch to metal spacers

Post by Tobias » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:12 am

I can see the point with dividing into thirds, but I rarely have the need to do that. As for work, never done that at my workplace. And the only decimals I use that is longer than f.example 5.102 gets rounded up. (It's another thing with f.example a hole with h7 tolerances, where it also is 3 decimals, and the CNC machines operate with 3 decimals. Only problem is when using a CAD drawing and making a toolpath into G-Code where it divides f.example a curve into numbers like 4.0231 and you would NEVER see the difference. Which is why you round down to 4.023. (Unless your machine has 4 decimals resolution, like our 5 axis machines).
ShapeOko #1758 with a few tweaks here and there.
I work as a CNC Operator (No mills, just lathes in different varities like Y axis and 5 axis), so have access to very good lathes.

jsbannis
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Re: We should switch to metal spacers

Post by jsbannis » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:20 pm

cvoinescu wrote:
Tobias wrote:Sorry to say, but I REALLY dislike the imperial system. Would problary dislike the metric if I were not born in a country that uses it. I have to link to this tho :P http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ijNPdg-6FxM/T ... 5_460s.jpg
That link is really misleading. It's true that there are 1760 yards to a mile, but that's not the whole story. It's more like this: there are 5.5 yards to a rod, 4 rods to a chain, 10 chains to a furlong, and 8 furlongs to the mile. Those are all nice small numbers, not something ridiculous like 1000 or 1760. Who cares they're all different, that there are alternative subdivisions that don't mesh with the others at all (100 links in a chain), that there are other units with specific uses (the fathom, 6 feet, used only for depth of water), and that, for %*$#'s sake, one of the factors is not even an integer? :roll:
The date pyramid in the link is misleading as well IMO. In daily use, month conveys the most information about the date the fastest, the day is slightly less significant, and the year is the least significant. If you ask for the date, and I say "day 27", that doesn't help at all; similar if I said "year 2013". If I say "June" at least you have some idea of where you are.

So in my (probably twisted) logic, the US format is big endian, while everyone else uses a middle endian monstrosity :)
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cvoinescu
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Re: We should switch to metal spacers

Post by cvoinescu » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:46 am

jsbannis wrote:The date pyramid in the link is misleading as well IMO. In daily use, month conveys the most information about the date the fastest, the day is slightly less significant, and the year is the least significant. If you ask for the date, and I say "day 27", that doesn't help at all; similar if I said "year 2013". If I say "June" at least you have some idea of where you are.

So in my (probably twisted) logic, the US format is big endian, while everyone else uses a middle endian monstrosity :)
I'd say that your example is flawed. If I ask "what day is today?", I have a pretty good idea of what year and month we're in, and probably can narrow down the date to a small interval, so "it's the 27th" is a perfectly helpful answer. "We're in June" would be you making fun of me not knowing what date it is. If I ask my wife "so when do we go on holiday?" and she says "on the 4th", again, I don't need the month and the year; I probably remember that. She could also helpfully say "in November", if it's a few months off so the exact day isn't very relevant yet; or maybe "in 2017" if she feels really pessimistic. To me, the European dd/mm/yyyy format makes more sense because it's not middle-endian and because it can be usefully truncated to dd/mm and mm/yyyy depending on relevance, but the Japanese (and ISO) format yyyy-mm-dd appeals to me too, firstly because it's unambiguous to everyone (there is no yyyy/dd/mm format, thank goodness), but also because it sorts lexicographically the same as chronologically, and because it emerges naturally when you read the paths in a multi-year archive organized hierarchically by date (e.g. digital photographs, blog posts).
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Will Winder
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Re: We should switch to metal spacers

Post by Will Winder » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:52 pm

This thread seems to be spiraling off topic. :)

I grew up being uneasy about the dd/mm/yyyy format, I was never quite sure what the date was until the 13th at which point the order no longer mattered. So I'll be the lone wolf and say I much prefer the "MMM dd, yyyy" as in "Jun 6, 2013". This way is unambiguous to anyone regardless of their preferences.

That said I configure my computers with the format "DDD MMM dd" as in "Thu Jun 6", since I'm generally comfortable recalling the year.

But when saving documents with a date stamp I always use yyyy_mm_dd so that they will sort properly.
ShapeOko #367: Dual-Y drive, Belt on outside, 1000mm Y-Axis, DW660 Spindle, Nema-23 X/Y motors.

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