Mark II

discussion of design changes / improvements / suggestions
WillAdams
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Re: Mark II

Post by WillAdams » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:05 pm

A final note and I'll go back to drawing tools --- I think the original released MakerSlide ShapeOko was an amazing and elegant design, worthy of industrial design awards (was it ever submitted for any?) and which should be added to MOMA's collection.

I don't dislike the new design as much as I feared, but I am concerned about the impact the loss of symmetry has on the aesthetics and the loss of flexibility in imposing a dual-motor design ab initio.

I hope my posts are taken as constructive criticism and help to make the new machine even better, or at least to inform discussion on the tradeoffs involved.
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WillAdams
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Re: Mark II

Post by WillAdams » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:02 pm

For the Z-axis:

Would it be possible to use 2 pieces of Makerslide bolted to the carriage plate spaced so that the delrin nut was in-between?

This would restore symmetry, eliminate any torquing / twisting and afford a wider platform (but would require more wheels)
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edwardrford
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Re: Mark II

Post by edwardrford » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:06 pm

Just to re-iterate: This is only a model, no final decisions in terms of design have been made. I wanted to get a conversation going about some of the specifics of the next machine, so posting my latest/complete model is the best way to do that.
WillAdams wrote:Lessee, we have:

- --- I hope the belt clamps will be available as a separate item from Inventables
Those clips will certainly be available through inventables. They're really great both in style and in function.
WillAdams wrote: - open end plates --- I'll miss the simplicity of the old design, but big win --- still disappointed that we didn't merge them w/ the standard carriage plates
The front/back plates on the new design are a single formed piece of steel, with flanges on the top (to mount the wasteboard) and bottom (to mount the leveling feet). The current open end plates, will be available separately for anyone looking to expand a gen1 machine. They're also very useful as just a mount for makerslide in a non-shapeoko application.
WillAdams wrote: - Dual Motor --- that's a big jump in price / complication --- I still prefer the simplicity /flexibility of a driveshaft as standard and the option of then switching to dual motor if one has a stepper to spare
"price/complication" is a relative term. When you're thinking of 1 unit, it means something different than when you're talking about 500 units. Once you start scaling any sort of production, the number of unique pieces required starts to count. At this time, I still believe that 2 motors is less expensive than 1 + driveshaft.
WillAdams wrote: - mount plates --- like the symmetry of the original design, but still thinking the eShapeOko plates offer a lot for the gantry ends when going dual makerslide for the x-axis --- what's w/ the 8 bolts holding a single piece of MakerSlide?
The plates allow for DualX, but for right now I'm playing around with using openRail on the back of a piece of makerslide. It's hard to see, but it's in the model.
WillAdams wrote: - doubled mount plates for X-axis carriage --- --- will individual plates be available? tested w/ dual MakerSlide?
Yes, individual plates will be available, and dual X makerslide works with this design. It should only be a matter of getting longer spacers.
WillAdams wrote: - the belt-driven Z-Axis ...Would it be helpful to use a longer belt, add a second pulley and delrin nut and screw and restore symmetry? Did you consider a design where the motor was mounted on the plate?
The z-axis has been my main point of contention for a while now. A few of the other members on the forum can vouch for me on that one, as I've reached out to a few people soliciting ideas for a new design. After 2 years, this is the best I could come up with. The whole thing is so compact, and the delrin nut is close enough to the center, that it works really really well. I had a machine with this design at makerFaire a few weeks ago. IC can probably attest to it's smoothness.
WillAdams wrote: - does the new Z-axis plate get us the indexed quick mount we've been wanting?
Unclear at this point. My guess is that someone can come up with a quick release mechanism for the plate.

WillAdams wrote: - will there be a new stock spindle to go along w/ the new mounts?
Unclear at this point. I had to put something in the model, and I happen to have a 3D model of the 300w DC spindle, so that's what I used. HOWEVER, the 300w DC spindle requires a 48v power supply, and a bunch of other stuff to get it running properly, which makes it too expensive. What I'd like to do is find a nice "trim router" sized cutting tool to use as the standard spindle.
WillAdams wrote: - the levelling base is a nice touch --- will it be an _option_ for the kit at Inventables? A bit surprised, since the flexibility and variety of bases has been interesting to see.
I'm really proud of the base to be perfectly honest. The front/back pieces are formed steel (see above for details), as well as the side pieces. The side pieces can be removed easily (4 bolts) and swapped out for a piece of standard 20/40 extrusion if someone for instance wanted to expand the Y axis :-). The wasteboard sitting on top of it is simply pieces of 12.7mm x 600mm x 125mm MDF. Added bonus, there is enough clearance beneath the machine to mount the electronics (not shown in the model). In addition, there are holes in the top flange of the side pieces that are used to screw the wasteboard in from the bottom.
WillAdams wrote: and is the Z-axis Makerslide turned around? The side w/ two slots be facing out to mount the spindle, right?
That's correct. There are actually 4 different sets of holes spaces 20mm apart going down the length of the plate. This allows for multiple mounting options.
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WillAdams
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Re: Mark II

Post by WillAdams » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:24 pm

edwardrford wrote:At this time, I still believe that 2 motors is less expensive than 1 + driveshaft.
I looked at the numbers on that pretty thoroughly here:

http://www.shapeoko.com/forum/viewtopic ... =30#p10128

>$23.68 (driveshaft) versus $32.39 (dual-motor)

>My build came in at quite a bit less --- the roll pins are a nice savings,
>the aluminum rod was cheap and I got a 5mm--6.35mm coupler off eBay for $3.97.

In quantity, I think the driveshaft would be even less expensive, esp. if the 5mm variant was used w/ a longer shaft on the motor.
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WillAdams
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Re: Mark II

Post by WillAdams » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:28 pm

edwardrford wrote:There are actually 4 different sets of holes spaced 20mm apart going down the length of the plate.
Are there matching holes in the MakerSlide? Have you considered providing an option of pre-drilled holes on a set spacing for the MakerSlide? It would open up a lot of options.
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edwardrford
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Re: Mark II

Post by edwardrford » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:04 pm

WillAdams wrote:...Are there matching holes in the MakerSlide? Have you considered providing an option of pre-drilled holes on a set spacing for the MakerSlide? It would open up a lot of options.
I hadn't considered that, and probably won't for the standard kit. Adding the secondary operation would be expensive, plus, with the proposed design, the makerslide rail is acting only as a rail, and not a mount. All of the mounting is done on the spindle mounting plate.
z_spindle_mount_plate.png
z_spindle_mount_plate.png (20.57 KiB) Viewed 1268 times
Ultimately, I want to provide a kit that results in the most hackable design possible, while providing a rock solid "standard" kit.
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Tom Smith
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Re: Mark II

Post by Tom Smith » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:15 pm

I'm really liking that Z assembly... it looks like assembly might be a but of a challenge to get just right, though, particularly if the assembler is new at this kind of thing. Do you think the setup will be pretty easy to do without binding the Z motion?

I'm already wondering how I might apply some of these ideas to my own ShapeOko :)

Really appealing design. Of course I am in a maker frame of mind, heading to the Vancouver mini maker faire today, and really looking forward to it :)

Tom
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Enraged
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Re: Mark II

Post by Enraged » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:20 pm

New design looks good, many improvements over the original yet still feels like an evolution of the design not a complete from scratch.

Only comment I can think of is to have a grid of holes in the endplates (the outside corner ones), so it can be used for a dual makerslide setup. A 20mm x 10mm grid of 2 x 3 holes would allow single or dual makerslide, centered or offset.

I like the new Z setup, I was planning something similar for my machine using an ACME screw.

Also, since Inventables has aluminum spacers now, replacing all of the plastic spacers would help with rigidity. If it doesn't increase the cost too much, it would be nice to have them included in the kit.

Edit:

A few other points after looking at it more.

You say the base can be expanded by replacing the side plate with an extrusion, what about the end plates? If you were to provide extra holes in the end plate, the end user could then cut the end plates, insert the new extrusions, and bolt it back together. The cut would be up to the user, but the holes being precisely drilled from the factory would make it easier.

Regarding holes, add a bunch. Whenever I'm adding things to my machines, like cable chains, fans, end stops, etc, it always helps to have predrilled holes in appropriate spots. The more the better. Extra holes won't effect rigidity too much, and not having to take apart the Shapeoko to drill holes (or the user not having the tools to drill nice holes) would be a big help. That brings up another point I might have missed, what about end stops/limit switches? Not necessarily included in the kit, but if you have holes for the small screws predrilled in the plate, it would make it easier to add them. The Ordbot Hadron I have has mounting holes with the right spacing for limit switches, very helpful.

Will there be some sort of bearing for the Z screw? It would need one either top or bottom.
Last edited by Enraged on Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Tom Smith
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Re: Mark II

Post by Tom Smith » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:20 pm

Should there be some various options of hole widths for other premade mounts that are out there? I seem to recall some different hole spacing for one of the.rotary.tools, and I think the 300W spindles on eBay come with a different spacing too. On the other hand, there are diminishing returns to be gained trying to be all things to everybody :)

Tom
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Tom Smith
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Re: Mark II

Post by Tom Smith » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:33 pm

WillAdams wrote:A final note and I'll go back to drawing tools --- I think the original released MakerSlide ShapeOko was an amazing and elegant design, worthy of industrial design awards (was it ever submitted for any?) and which should be added to MOMA's collection.

I don't dislike the new design as much as I feared, but I am concerned about the impact the loss of symmetry has on the aesthetics and the loss of flexibility in imposing a dual-motor design ab initio.
The point that a user need not implement one or the other of the dual motor/drive shaft improvements is the most important thing here, IMHO.

I'm a strong advocate of function topping form, though I agree about the original, while assembling my ShapeOko I was striken by the clean looks. I don't have an aversion to the new design though. I keep coming back to that Z assembly, something is intriguing to my own (subjective) sense of asthetics.

But we're not talking iDevices here, it's a tool, albeit one that is near and dear to all of us. How it looks is a distant second to what it does :)

Tom
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