Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

discussion of design changes / improvements / suggestions
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LouisV
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:41 am

Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by LouisV » Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:34 am

Hey guys, I'm pretty new here. I've only made a few posts but I hope I can be of some help to people and vice versa. I'm currently working on a custom build of the Shapeoko 2. I want to extend the size considerably as well as add in different electronics and more powerful stepper motors (I'm thinking four 166oz Nema 23 motors) and spindle. I still have a ways to go, I'm not even done with the mechanical aspect of the machine, but here's what I have so far.

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My custom Shaepoko 2 on an all aluminum stand with caster wheels.

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As you can see the machine will be able to work with large sized materials. I opted for a t-slot bed as opposed to MDF. I don't mind working with clamps and I have plenty of large sized MDF boards that can clamped down and used as sacrificial boards. Using proximity sensors I plan on artificially setting the working travel size to about 48.5" x 24.5", but that's not set in stone.

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You can see I upgraded the Z-axis to use a Nema 23 stepper motor as well as replaced the M8 threaded rod with the acme screw upgrade.

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Each Y-axis maker slide is re-enforced with a 40x20mm extrusion. I drilled holes through them and using button head cap screws and post-assembly extrusion nuts I anchored them to the maker slides as well as to the end plates.

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For even more added strength to the Y-axis I will be using the mid-span support upgrade as well.

I still have a ways to go and I will be looking for ways to strengthen the machine further as well as keeping performance high, but for now that's all I have to show. Well I have to go and join the family, it's Christmas Eve after all. I wish all of you a Merry Christmas!!! :)

samc99us
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:20 pm

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by samc99us » Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:58 am

Wow Louis, impressive machine! Can you post the lengths of the makerslide in use? Also, the source for your aluminum table?? When I went hunting on that front it was easily the cost of a SO2.

I like the y-axis supports. Can you take photos of the other side (post assembly extrusion t-nuts), or are those blind?

I'll say I'm more than a bit concerned about your massive x-axis. I ran some cosmoworks simulations on Misumi 2080 extrusion today, and even with 5 lbs of load the deflection in the middle of a 4' beam is on the order of 0.01" even with both ends supported. You'd be half that with a stock beam but it's too much for me to be comfortable with. I am looking at a dual 2080 x-gantry with an aluminum I-beam in the middle, ala Harry's CastCNC. Stiff and very torsion resistant (stock 8020, Misumi etc. is bad in torsion). I'm also planning a short x and long y-axis to keep the rigidity high.

What I am most curious is feedback on the belt drive system at these longer lengths. Can you get the tension high enough? Is the repeatability sufficient?? Unfortunately, the r&p drive system on the cncmogul isn't open source :(

Merry Christmas!!
Modified Shapeoko 2: 1500mm fully supported y-axis, 1000 mm 4060 x-axis, ACME Belt Drive Z-axis, Dewalt DNP611, full aluminum t-slot table, 4x NEMA23 180 oz/in stepper motors driven by a G540

LouisV
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:41 am

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by LouisV » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:43 pm

samc99us wrote:Wow Louis, impressive machine! Can you post the lengths of the makerslide in use? Also, the source for your aluminum table?? When I went hunting on that front it was easily the cost of a SO2.

I like the y-axis supports. Can you take photos of the other side (post assembly extrusion t-nuts), or are those blind?

I'll say I'm more than a bit concerned about your massive x-axis. I ran some cosmoworks simulations on Misumi 2080 extrusion today, and even with 5 lbs of load the deflection in the middle of a 4' beam is on the order of 0.01" even with both ends supported. You'd be half that with a stock beam but it's too much for me to be comfortable with. I am looking at a dual 2080 x-gantry with an aluminum I-beam in the middle, ala Harry's CastCNC. Stiff and very torsion resistant (stock 8020, Misumi etc. is bad in torsion). I'm also planning a short x and long y-axis to keep the rigidity high.

What I am most curious is feedback on the belt drive system at these longer lengths. Can you get the tension high enough? Is the repeatability sufficient?? Unfortunately, the r&p drive system on the cncmogul isn't open source :(

Merry Christmas!!
Thanks samc99us! Y maker slides are 1000mm. X maker slides are 1550mm. The source for the aluminum was Inventables. Not the most cost effective route, I know :cry: . I just bit the bullet and went with them since money isn't too much of a concern as this machine is for a small business and not personal use. I wanted 20x80mm extrusions and they were the only source I could find that would be compatible with the other extrusions I already owned. Misumi as a source is even more expensive than Inventables. :/ Openbuilds does however sell similar extrusions for about 30% less than Inventables. If I had known about them sooner I would have gone that route since they had black 20x80 extrusions. CNC Router parts will be having 6 inch wide planks of aluminum t-track available on January. They told me that it will cost roughly $400 to cover a 4x2 foot area so that might be an option for you.

While I'm happy with the reinforcement of the y-axis (when I finish mounting the mid span support plate) I too am a bit concerned with the x-axis. Just to be clear the x-axis is currently using dual maker slides just in case you thought I was only using one, but I feel that may not be rigid enough considering the length.

I'm trying to think of ways to reinforce that without having to resort to using new motor mount plates. I suppose I could do something similar that I did for the y-axis. I could use an additional 20x80mm aluminum extrusion for reinforcement. I could sandwich the extrusion between the two x-axis maker slides and anchor the maker slides to the extrusion via button head cap screws and extrusion nuts. It'll require different spacers for the carriage and some hole drilling to the maker slides and extrusion (much like the y-axis support I did), but it's do'able and should increase rigidity. Your thoughts on that?

I haven't tested the belt drive system yet, but I'll be using GT2 belting. I'm confident it will work fine, but I'll report my findings later when I get my stepper motors and electronics. They should be delivered within a week from now.

.......annnnnnnnd I'm being pulled away from the computer since it's Christmas morning so I'll be back later lol.

Merry Christmas

samc99us
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:20 pm

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by samc99us » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:01 pm

Louis,

I'm using mine for a small business as well. Cost is a bit more of a concern since I'm funding it with my day job. Anyway, Misumi wants $20.90 for a 1000mm length of 20x80mm extrusion, Inventables wants $34.40 for them!! Shipping is IMO a wash, since I'll be shipping with a business account with Misumi, so in reality it is likely cheaper. Curious why you thought they were more expensive?

Hmm, I'll watch out for CNCRouterParts options. I found some on ebay but it's like $300+$50 shipping for the bed. I think I'd rather go the t-track route, for now I'm just going to install a bunch of 1/4-20 t-nuts in 3/4" MDF. Total cost: $40.

I've been realizing I need to work backwards on my machine. I finished my machine and got a pretty nice pen drawing of "LinuxCNC". Will post photos later; the next step is creating the g-code, I couldn't get "Shapeoko 2" to print from the .NC file on the wiki (linuxcnc thinks my machine is too small to cut it). Anyway, the z-axis has the most flex in torsion right now, by far. I tightened up the v-wheels to no real benefit, so this will likely be my first upgrade.

On your machine, I would have swapped the x and y-axis makerslide, i.e 1000mm x-axis and 1550mm y-axis. I understand from a loading materials standpoint it's easier, but I have two friends with custom R&P Joe's CNC machines that went 4' on the gantry and in hindsight would have gone 2' on that axis. Less length=less flex+less torsion. I understand your desire to keep the motor plates the same; I've resigned myself to needing custom motor plates, planning on cutting them out of 0.19" aluminum. Sistering another section of 20x80mm extrusion to your x-axis will help, but you really want to get the most space between the front and rear makerslide as you can for torsional rigidity. For this reason, I'm looking at 3" x 2.5" aluminum i-beam with 20mmx80mm aluminum extrusion attached to each side of the i beam. Steel v-rail will bolt directly to the aluminum extrusion, plus be bonded in place with west systems or similar epoxy (I use resin research 2 part epoxy primarily) to reduce the number of holes tapped and drilled. The major downside to this is weight, a 36" aluminum i-beam is ~6 lbs. See here for Harry's CastCNC plans: http://www.castcnc.com/files/CastCNCBuild.PDF

Honestly I'm wondering how simply tying the two x-axis maker slide pieces together with t-nuts and bolts improves the stiffness overall? I know Improbable Construct went with a section of 40mmx80mm as the x-axis gantry, but here again it's torsional rigidity that is the issue. Joe's CNC's and derivatives use ~30mmx60mm (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/archive/ind ... 4d85346982) and that has torsional issues. I'm looking to build the stiffest machine for under $1000 at the sacrifice of speed.
Modified Shapeoko 2: 1500mm fully supported y-axis, 1000 mm 4060 x-axis, ACME Belt Drive Z-axis, Dewalt DNP611, full aluminum t-slot table, 4x NEMA23 180 oz/in stepper motors driven by a G540

LouisV
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:41 am

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by LouisV » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:48 pm

samc99us wrote:Louis,

I'm using mine for a small business as well. Cost is a bit more of a concern since I'm funding it with my day job. Anyway, Misumi wants $20.90 for a 1000mm length of 20x80mm extrusion, Inventables wants $34.40 for them!! Shipping is IMO a wash, since I'll be shipping with a business account with Misumi, so in reality it is likely cheaper. Curious why you thought they were more expensive?

Hmm, I'll watch out for CNCRouterParts options. I found some on ebay but it's like $300+$50 shipping for the bed. I think I'd rather go the t-track route, for now I'm just going to install a bunch of 1/4-20 t-nuts in 3/4" MDF. Total cost: $40.

I've been realizing I need to work backwards on my machine. I finished my machine and got a pretty nice pen drawing of "LinuxCNC". Will post photos later; the next step is creating the g-code, I couldn't get "Shapeoko 2" to print from the .NC file on the wiki (linuxcnc thinks my machine is too small to cut it). Anyway, the z-axis has the most flex in torsion right now, by far. I tightened up the v-wheels to no real benefit, so this will likely be my first upgrade.

On your machine, I would have swapped the x and y-axis makerslide, i.e 1000mm x-axis and 1550mm y-axis. I understand from a loading materials standpoint it's easier, but I have two friends with custom R&P Joe's CNC machines that went 4' on the gantry and in hindsight would have gone 2' on that axis. Less length=less flex+less torsion. I understand your desire to keep the motor plates the same; I've resigned myself to needing custom motor plates, planning on cutting them out of 0.19" aluminum. Sistering another section of 20x80mm extrusion to your x-axis will help, but you really want to get the most space between the front and rear makerslide as you can for torsional rigidity. For this reason, I'm looking at 3" x 2.5" aluminum i-beam with 20mmx80mm aluminum extrusion attached to each side of the i beam. Steel v-rail will bolt directly to the aluminum extrusion, plus be bonded in place with west systems or similar epoxy (I use resin research 2 part epoxy primarily) to reduce the number of holes tapped and drilled. The major downside to this is weight, a 36" aluminum i-beam is ~6 lbs. See here for Harry's CastCNC plans: http://www.castcnc.com/files/CastCNCBuild.PDF

Honestly I'm wondering how simply tying the two x-axis maker slide pieces together with t-nuts and bolts improves the stiffness overall? I know Improbable Construct went with a section of 40mmx80mm as the x-axis gantry, but here again it's torsional rigidity that is the issue. Joe's CNC's and derivatives use ~30mmx60mm (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/archive/ind ... 4d85346982) and that has torsional issues. I'm looking to build the stiffest machine for under $1000 at the sacrifice of speed.
samc99us,

Wow, that much cheaper?! I wondered where I went wrong when I got my price quote at Misumi. Could you give me a link to the $20 price quote?

Yes, you're correct, loading material is way easier the way I have it now, not to mention the way my shop is laid out it makes more sense for the orientation of the machine to be the way it is. Now I should mention that 95% of my jobs will be cutting entire parts out, so I'll be digging into the sacrificial MDF. Any amount of downward flex on the gantry, especially towards the center, probably won't be an issue for my purposes especially if I use a Z-axis touch plate and "map" the work area. Any amount of downward flex should be compensated by the software. Sistering another extrusion should help with rigidity and I think should make the machine strong enough for my needs.

However I think of instead of just drilling holes into the extrusion/makerslides and sliding the bolts straight through I'll drill, tap, and then secure with the extrusion nuts. The steel bolts at that point would not only be holding the two maker slides and extrusion together but should also absorb some of the load since they will be pressed against from all sides of the extrusions. An analogy would be reinforced concrete with steel rebar inside. This is a theory but logically it sounds like it should work. I'll post pics on this modification and report my findings.

I'm very interested in your machine, I'd love to see photos and some documentation.

I think eventually I'd love to make custom end plates and motor plates for a new machine. I already have a vision for a "Shapeoko HD" (Heavy Duty). I'd want it to be able to handle a 1.5kw to 2.2kw spindle as well as more powerful stepper motors in the 380oz-450z range while maintain a large work area like my current machine. But some redesigns will need to be made. I have some ideas but not everything is fully fleshed out. Of course at the end of the day I'd still want this HD machine to look like a Shapeoko, just a super beefy Shapeoko running on rocket fuel. :lol:

samc99us
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:20 pm

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by samc99us » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:06 pm

Louis,

Here's the link: http://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/11 ... 20/?Inch=0
Part number is HFS5-2080-1000

Inventables is great but they typically have a 50% markup on parts.

My machine right now is bone dead stock. I'm tempted to go with 1000mm y-axis makerslide, which will let me cut everything I absolutely need to, but I keep telling myself to use this machine to learn the g-code process and cut parts for my heavy duty Shapeoko. I too will surface the MDF table so it is true to the machine and then go to town. I'm not sure if I'm going to use the DNP-611; it's giant compared with the machine, but this is the size spindle I think makes the most sense for typical hobby use (it's in the 1.5kw range).

I am drawing a design in CAD and will post the renderings and files when I am able. My plan is to use Openbuilds VR1 sized steel v-wheels, steel vrd1 v-rail from grainger (http://www.grainger.com/search?searchQuery=vrd1), and all 2080 extrusions from Misumi, plus the i-beam mod I mentioned. Likely I'll use 4080 for the y-rails for the extra width stiffness.
Modified Shapeoko 2: 1500mm fully supported y-axis, 1000 mm 4060 x-axis, ACME Belt Drive Z-axis, Dewalt DNP611, full aluminum t-slot table, 4x NEMA23 180 oz/in stepper motors driven by a G540

LouisV
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:41 am

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by LouisV » Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:47 pm

samc99us wrote:Louis,

Here's the link: http://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/11 ... 20/?Inch=0
Part number is HFS5-2080-1000

Inventables is great but they typically have a 50% markup on parts.

My machine right now is bone dead stock. I'm tempted to go with 1000mm y-axis makerslide, which will let me cut everything I absolutely need to, but I keep telling myself to use this machine to learn the g-code process and cut parts for my heavy duty Shapeoko. I too will surface the MDF table so it is true to the machine and then go to town. I'm not sure if I'm going to use the DNP-611; it's giant compared with the machine, but this is the size spindle I think makes the most sense for typical hobby use (it's in the 1.5kw range).

I am drawing a design in CAD and will post the renderings and files when I am able. My plan is to use Openbuilds VR1 sized steel v-wheels, steel vrd1 v-rail from grainger (http://www.grainger.com/search?searchQuery=vrd1), and all 2080 extrusions from Misumi, plus the i-beam mod I mentioned. Likely I'll use 4080 for the y-rails for the extra width stiffness.
samc99us,

Thanks for the link. I'll be buying my aluminum from them as well as from Open Builds for now on. :D

I see, so you're going to use the stock Shapeoko 2 to get your feet wet and then build your very own custom machine afterwards?

The DNP-611 is a very robust router for the stock Shapeoko 2. I've heard good things about it. However it's more in the 800 watt range and peaks at 1000 watts for short periods of time under ideal conditions. A real 1.5kw spindle is heavy compared to the DNP-611. I believe the DNP-611 weighs 2 pounds vs a 1.5kw (not to be confused with a 1.5kw router) weighing in the 8-9 pound range. I myself have a 600 watt DC spindle (though based on the specs it's more of an 800 watt spindle) and it weighs about 4 pounds. It has a similar power output of the DNP-611 but it's twice the weight, half the noise, and better suited for milling aluminum due to its high torque at low rpm. My DC spindle can operate between 2500 rpm to 13000 rpm vs the DNP-611 which operates between 16,000 rpm to 27,000 rpm. Due to the DNP-611 needing to reach much higher rpms to have decent levels of torque it's better suited for wood than aluminum, though it will still mill aluminum, you just need to adjust your feed speeds and depth cuts accordingly.

I would love to see your renderings and any documentation for your custom machine. Now I think you and I are going two completely different routes for our machines. You're going to make an ultra rigid machine using mostly custom parts or parts that are not original to the Shapeoko 2, which I think is fantastic and I'm very interested to see what you come up with. Whereas I'm trying to see how far I can push Edward Ford's design while still keeping certain parts of the machine original to the Shapeoko 2 design, like the end plates, motor mount plates, makerslides, etc. I think that would help people see the potential of what their stock Shapeoko 2 can turn into with a little bit of work and not having to resort to custom plates or different railings other then makerslide.

I'm fairly confident that with my modifications you'd be hard pressed to make a more robust and rigid version of the Shapeoko 2 without resorting to custom parts. My goal for this machine is to take the light duty stock Shapeoko 2 and turn it into a medium duty tabletop machine, while still being a Shapeoko 2. For this project it was never my intentions to make this machine into a heavy duty machine capable of milling steel or any really hard material. Of course I'd love to make a new heavy duty machine in the future based on the Shapeoko 2 design, but for now I'm content with a medium duty machine that is able to do what I need it to do.

Down below are some photos of the finished y-axis supports. I think they came out nice and they certainly are much stronger than before. Next up on my list is to strengthen the x-axis. Though the aluminum and bolts I ordered won't be in until January 3rd. :(

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Last edited by LouisV on Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gadroc
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:47 am

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by Gadroc » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:49 pm

Very nice machine! I have very similar goals on mine. I'm using a DW660 + superpid instead of the DW611 to keep the weight down, but I'm really tempted on that 600W spindle if it works well for you. I also decided to have a longer x axis than y to better fit my space requirements in the garage and make loading material easier. My goal was a 2x4ft cut area, but I had to scale down to 45" due to dust shoe clearance and space.

90% of my planned usage is cutting and pocketing plywood, but I do need to profile cut some 1/16th aluminum sheets for my primary project. I'd be interested in what you come up with on adding further strength to the X axis.

LouisV
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:41 am

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by LouisV » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:05 pm

Gadroc wrote:Very nice machine! I have very similar goals on mine. I'm using a DW660 + superpid instead of the DW611 to keep the weight down, but I'm really tempted on that 600W spindle if it works well for you. I also decided to have a longer x axis than y to better fit my space requirements in the garage and make loading material easier. My goal was a 2x4ft cut area, but I had to scale down to 45" due to dust shoe clearance and space.

90% of my planned usage is cutting and pocketing plywood, but I do need to profile cut some 1/16th aluminum sheets for my primary project. I'd be interested in what you come up with on adding further strength to the X axis.
Thanks! Great to hear you have similar goals to mine. Follow my build whenever you can to help give you some inspiration for your build. Well if you're going to primarily cut wood I think the router you have will work great. The 600w spindle I have is better suited for working with aluminum than wood, but if you're up for experimenting with the spindle please post your results. :)

I recently bought a dust shoe from KentCNC. It's really nice though a little bigger than I thought it would be lol. I had to put spacers between the spindle mounting plate and the spindle mount to give the shoe enough clearance from hitting the bottom bearing of the acme screw on the z-axis. Putting the spacers in also gives me full z-axis travel, otherwise the top of the spindle would hit the top motor mount plate.

Please post any pics of work for your custom Shapeoko 2. I'm really interested to see it. :)

Gadroc
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:47 am

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by Gadroc » Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:49 pm

You can see pictures of the assembled machine in my build log. I need to post up the STLs of the drag chain mounts and limit switch stops.

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