Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

discussion of design changes / improvements / suggestions
hippalator
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:40 pm

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by hippalator » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:12 am

cvoinescu wrote:Several people have doubled their Y axis. That's why the Shapeoko 2 end plates have extra slits. You can also attach the Y rails to the bed at more points than just the ends, so you don't need to double them, necessarily. At least one person made a special table where the Y rails are attached to the table along their entire length.
I'm looking at doubling up the y-axis for reasons of weight of Z and router (more wheels) and more stability.
I don't think the v wheels are built for the extra weight of a bigger router.

LouisV
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:41 am

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by LouisV » Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:09 am

hippalator wrote:
cvoinescu wrote:Several people have doubled their Y axis. That's why the Shapeoko 2 end plates have extra slits. You can also attach the Y rails to the bed at more points than just the ends, so you don't need to double them, necessarily. At least one person made a special table where the Y rails are attached to the table along their entire length.
I'm looking at doubling up the y-axis for reasons of weight of Z and router (more wheels) and more stability.
I don't think the v wheels are built for the extra weight of a bigger router.
Hey Hippalator,

I'm not sure if you saw all of my upgrades to my machine, but you'll notice that I'm using delrin v-wheels. Other then adding an additional 2 v-wheels to the spindle mounting plate for a total of 6 as opposed to 4, I left the stock Shapeoko 2 design alone as far as the wheels are concerned.

I currently have a 4.2 pound 600w spindle mounted to the machine. The v-wheels hold it firmly onto the z-axis maker-slide with no issue. Flexing and torsion is kept at a bare minimum and doesn't have a noticeable effect on my machine. Repeatability on the x, y, and z is excellent (I can etch a circle 100 times with no visible deviation) so there is no issue with stability from what I've experienced. I also have a 5 pound 800w spindle that 'll be installing on the machine for regular use in the next 1-2 days. I have no worries on whether or not it'll be too heavy or too powerful for the v-wheels or the rest of the machine for that matter. Delrin v-wheels are stronger than a lot of people give them credit for.

Unless you're wanting to use a 1.5kw spindle and above and are pairing it with stepper motors that have a torque rating of 380oz/in or more then you shouldn't have to worry about doubling up the v-wheels or resorting to steel wheels (if you had steel v-rail).

hippalator
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:40 pm

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by hippalator » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:52 pm

LouisV wrote:
hippalator wrote:
cvoinescu wrote:Several people have doubled their Y axis. That's why the Shapeoko 2 end plates have extra slits. You can also attach the Y rails to the bed at more points than just the ends, so you don't need to double them, necessarily. At least one person made a special table where the Y rails are attached to the table along their entire length.
I'm looking at doubling up the y-axis for reasons of weight of Z and router (more wheels) and more stability.
I don't think the v wheels are built for the extra weight of a bigger router.
Hey Hippalator,

I'm not sure if you saw all of my upgrades to my machine, but you'll notice that I'm using delrin v-wheels. Other then adding an additional 2 v-wheels to the spindle mounting plate for a total of 6 as opposed to 4, I left the stock Shapeoko 2 design alone as far as the wheels are concerned.

I currently have a 4.2 pound 600w spindle mounted to the machine. The v-wheels hold it firmly onto the z-axis maker-slide with no issue. Flexing and torsion is kept at a bare minimum and doesn't have a noticeable effect on my machine. Repeatability on the x, y, and z is excellent (I can etch a circle 100 times with no visible deviation) so there is no issue with stability from what I've experienced. I also have a 5 pound 800w spindle that 'll be installing on the machine for regular use in the next 1-2 days. I have no worries on whether or not it'll be too heavy or too powerful for the v-wheels or the rest of the machine for that matter. Delrin v-wheels are stronger than a lot of people give them credit for.

Unless you're wanting to use a 1.5kw spindle and above and are pairing it with stepper motors that have a torque rating of 380oz/in or more then you shouldn't have to worry about doubling up the v-wheels or resorting to steel wheels (if you had steel v-rail).
Yes, I have looked at your set up and it's a real nice setup. I've learned quite a bit by your photo's....thank you for posting them.
I am going to be using nema 23 steppers in the range of 305oz/in unipolar//425oz/in bipolar and probably a spindle big enough for aluminum, but mainly for wood projects using the aspire software.

LouisV
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:41 am

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by LouisV » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:11 pm

hippalator wrote: Yes, I have looked at your set up and it's a real nice setup. I've learned quite a bit by your photo's....thank you for posting them.
I am going to be using nema 23 steppers in the range of 305oz/in unipolar//425oz/in bipolar and probably a spindle big enough for aluminum, but mainly for wood projects using the aspire software.
Glad my photos were of help to you. I have a question, please don't take this the wrong way but why do you feel the need to use such powerful stepper motors? The Shapeoko 2 frame was never designed for such beefy things, even if you do reinforce it in similar fashion to what I did to my machine. I fear you'll also snap the belting relatively quickly if you're goal is to have super fast rapids and feed rates with high levels of torque. Personally I would not go above NEMA 23s that are in the 276oz - 286oz range for the Shapeoko 2, though you might be able to get away with using the 305oz/in unipolar that you mentioned. My machine has NEMA 23's rated at 166oz and they're plenty powerful for the Shapeoko 2. I can have rapids in the 400 IPM range if I choose to and so far my experience with cutting acrylic and aluminum have been able to give adequate feed-rates.

What router or spindle do you plan on using? Just like the stepper motors there is such a thing as going too big and too powerful. I would recommend that you don't go beyond the 1HP range. An 800w spindle (1HP) weighs 5 pounds and that's considered really heavy for the Shapeoko 2, even if reinforced. That's the most powerful spindle that I would recommend. If you're going with a router instead the Dewalt DWP611 is an ok choice too but not at the same level as a spindle.

Now I'm going to side step real quick. Any reasonable and logical person would think that a 1.25HP router would be the better choice when pit against a 1HP spindle, I mean who doesn't want more power? However even though the Dewalt DWP611 is advertised at 1.25HP you're not going to get that. Consumer tools don't follow the same standards as industrial tools. A spindle is an industrial device and is rated using the international standard RMS (root mean square) power. This standard is accurate and verified prior to labeling the tool.

A router, as a handheld consumer device can be advertised using peak horsepower. This means the designers can use perfect voltage, perfect temps, and tweak any other parameter to develop a theoretical horsepower rating, even if it's only a burst of a few seconds, and market the tool rated as such. Some people may try to call BS but a 1HP spindle will actually perform at a similar level as a 2.25 HP consumer router, such as the Porter Cable 892 or Bosch 1617EVS for example. Few if any 110v consumer routers can actually produce and sustain 1HP, regardless of what they're advertised to produce. A good rule of thumb when it comes to consumer routers is to take the peak HP rating and cut it in half, that's more or less the actual sustained HP that it'll give you.

I'm assuming you'll want to work with hard woods and aluminum? I would recommend a 1HP AC spindle if you have the money. It's leaps and bounds better than a router when it comes to CNC machines.

Here's an an example of what can be done with four 166oz stepper motors and a 600w (3/4HP) DC spindle. I managed to cut some new spindle mounts for my 800w (1HP) AC spindle out of a 1/2" thick aluminum plate. I designed them to be compatible with the stock Shapeoko 2 mounting plate. Here's a couple of photos of that.

Image

Image

samc99us
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:20 pm

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by samc99us » Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:38 pm

Louis,

That is pretty sweet. Going to 6 wheels on the Z-axis clearly made a big difference. Did you use the stock plate for that mod?

I will say, looking at the photos, you have a lot of clearance between the back of the spindle mount and the attachment point. I presume this is to clear the z-axis plate. I will be re-working that over the next few days to get some more Z-clearance. I definitely have some slop in my setup as a result of hanging the spindle further off the z-axis. This is the only weak point I can find. Cutting acrylic was a bit tough with the stock machine and no precise bits collet (in the mail). I'll probably cut a new UHMW spindle mount that should be tougher and more accurate than the 3D printed ABS mounts I'm using currently (pics in the build logs thread) when I can turn 1/8" bits again.

I agree, 280 oz-in steppers are probably the upper limits. I haven't found my crummy 65 oz-in steppers to be holding me back yet, so running the beefiest NEMA17's you can find is a very viable option IMO.
Modified Shapeoko 2: 1500mm fully supported y-axis, 1000 mm 4060 x-axis, ACME Belt Drive Z-axis, Dewalt DNP611, full aluminum t-slot table, 4x NEMA23 180 oz/in stepper motors driven by a G540

LouisV
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:41 am

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by LouisV » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:28 pm

samc99us wrote:Louis,

That is pretty sweet. Going to 6 wheels on the Z-axis clearly made a big difference. Did you use the stock plate for that mod?

I will say, looking at the photos, you have a lot of clearance between the back of the spindle mount and the attachment point. I presume this is to clear the z-axis plate. I will be re-working that over the next few days to get some more Z-clearance. I definitely have some slop in my setup as a result of hanging the spindle further off the z-axis. This is the only weak point I can find. Cutting acrylic was a bit tough with the stock machine and no precise bits collet (in the mail). I'll probably cut a new UHMW spindle mount that should be tougher and more accurate than the 3D printed ABS mounts I'm using currently (pics in the build logs thread) when I can turn 1/8" bits again.

I agree, 280 oz-in steppers are probably the upper limits. I haven't found my crummy 65 oz-in steppers to be holding me back yet, so running the beefiest NEMA17's you can find is a very viable option IMO.
Yeah 6 wheels is the way to go if you're using a heavier router/spindle. It's just more rigid. And yes, I used the stock plate. I try to steer clear from using custom parts when I can, but sometimes it can't be avoided.

Yes you're correct about the clearance on the spindle mount, without it the spindle doesn't have enough travel because it'll run right into the z-axis plate. I did a similar thing with the stock universal spindle mount for the 600w spindle by adding 1/2 spacers behind it. I found it to have no negative effect in performance. When I install the 800 spindle I'll be using 3 of my custom spindle mounts rather than 2. This will ensure that the spindle will stay on point and is firmly in place.

hippalator
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:40 pm

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by hippalator » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:30 pm

LouisV wrote:
hippalator wrote: Yes, I have looked at your set up and it's a real nice setup. I've learned quite a bit by your photo's....thank you for posting them.
I am going to be using nema 23 steppers in the range of 305oz/in unipolar//425oz/in bipolar and probably a spindle big enough for aluminum, but mainly for wood projects using the aspire software.
Glad my photos were of help to you. I have a question, please don't take this the wrong way but why do you feel the need to use such powerful stepper motors? The Shapeoko 2 frame was never designed for such beefy things, even if you do reinforce it in similar fashion to what I did to my machine. I fear you'll also snap the belting relatively quickly if you're goal is to have super fast rapids and feed rates with high levels of torque. Personally I would not go above NEMA 23s that are in the 276oz - 286oz range for the Shapeoko 2, though you might be able to get away with using the 305oz/in unipolar that you mentioned. My machine has NEMA 23's rated at 166oz and they're plenty powerful for the Shapeoko 2. I can have rapids in the 400 IPM range if I choose to and so far my experience with cutting acrylic and aluminum have been able to give adequate feed-rates.

What router or spindle do you plan on using? Just like the stepper motors there is such a thing as going too big and too powerful. I would recommend that you don't go beyond the 1HP range. An 800w spindle (1HP) weighs 5 pounds and that's considered really heavy for the Shapeoko 2, even if reinforced. That's the most powerful spindle that I would recommend. If you're going with a router instead the Dewalt DWP611 is an ok choice too but not at the same level as a spindle.

Now I'm going to side step real quick. Any reasonable and logical person would think that a 1.25HP router would be the better choice when pit against a 1HP spindle, I mean who doesn't want more power? However even though the Dewalt DWP611 is advertised at 1.25HP you're not going to get that. Consumer tools don't follow the same standards as industrial tools. A spindle is an industrial device and is rated using the international standard RMS (root mean square) power. This standard is accurate and verified prior to labeling the tool.

A router, as a handheld consumer device can be advertised using peak horsepower. This means the designers can use perfect voltage, perfect temps, and tweak any other parameter to develop a theoretical horsepower rating, even if it's only a burst of a few seconds, and market the tool rated as such. Some people may try to call BS but a 1HP spindle will actually perform at a similar level as a 2.25 HP consumer router, such as the Porter Cable 892 or Bosch 1617EVS for example. Few if any 110v consumer routers can actually produce and sustain 1HP, regardless of what they're advertised to produce. A good rule of thumb when it comes to consumer routers is to take the peak HP rating and cut it in half, that's more or less the actual sustained HP that it'll give you.

I'm assuming you'll want to work with hard woods and aluminum? I would recommend a 1HP AC spindle if you have the money. It's leaps and bounds better than a router when it comes to CNC machines.

Here's an an example of what can be done with four 166oz stepper motors and a 600w (3/4HP) DC spindle. I managed to cut some new spindle mounts for my 800w (1HP) AC spindle out of a 1/2" thick aluminum plate. I designed them to be compatible with the stock Shapeoko 2 mounting plate. Here's a couple of photos of that.

Image

Image
Thank you for such a lengthy post.....it has answered many unknowns for me......very helpful!
I'm going with such a big cnc because I need the room for milling cabinet doors designed in Aspire.
Being this big a machine (1800 x 1000mm) is going to need rigidity so thats why I'm going with double Y axis with modified motor plates. I'm looking for rigidity over a long period of time. If the belts are to small I'm thinking of going with a wider/thicker belt system to compensate
The nema 23 at 425oz/in in bipolar are because I had these around for another cnc build that never happened and need to put them to use.
I havent really thought much about the spindle. I'm thinking of going with a router but I'm reading that store shelf routers arent all that rigid compared to a spindle made for the job. If I can get a 1hp spindle for under 400.00 thats what I'll go with.
The Z bracket I have is a custom bracket that I'll bolt to the modified motor plate.....it weighs roughly 3 lbs itself. This much weight is going to be a strain on the Y axis v wheels so I think I'm going to need to double up the y axis just on the weight alone.

samc99us
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:20 pm

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by samc99us » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:42 pm

Y axis should be OK. I'd be concerned about the X-axis

Louis, aluminum mounts probably make a noticeable difference. I'll need to get some and cut some, 3 is an excellent option. My concern is the more distance, the more force on the x axis. I can push down on my spindle and see the flex. And yes, all my v-wheels are tight! I'm leaning more and more to copying your design with some differences, at least so I can keep the same motor plates, v-wheels and idlers. Just new rail, longer belts and some spacers :)
Modified Shapeoko 2: 1500mm fully supported y-axis, 1000 mm 4060 x-axis, ACME Belt Drive Z-axis, Dewalt DNP611, full aluminum t-slot table, 4x NEMA23 180 oz/in stepper motors driven by a G540

samc99us
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:20 pm

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by samc99us » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:11 pm

Louis,

How are you planning to cut the holes that attach the mounts to the machine?

Thanks,
Sam
Modified Shapeoko 2: 1500mm fully supported y-axis, 1000 mm 4060 x-axis, ACME Belt Drive Z-axis, Dewalt DNP611, full aluminum t-slot table, 4x NEMA23 180 oz/in stepper motors driven by a G540

AlexOSD
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:53 pm

Re: Working on a custom Shapeoko 2

Post by AlexOSD » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:54 pm

LouisV,

You've built my dream machine (nearly). I've been researching for the past few months the best DIY CNC and Shapeoko just hit the spot.
I live in Italy, so many parts are easy to find or purchase online, except for the electronics (despite Italy being the home of Arduino, it's still behind on availability).
I'm planning on expanding the Z axis as well so I can work on clay and wood blocks that will function as molds.
Would you be willing to share the plans you have from your work so far?
I'd love to adapt them to my future version, but I'm not really that well versed in CNCs, having so far just a good grasp on the mechanics of the thingamajig. :D

Awesome work, brother!

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