shakpeoko 2: expand to 1800mm x 900mm

discussion of design changes / improvements / suggestions
orangezero
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Re: shakpeoko 2: expand to 1800mm x 900mm

Post by orangezero » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:10 pm

As to the size issue, I'm going to be hopefully working with around a 4ft x 3ft usable space. I think the jump would be there. Going from 4x4 to 4x8 means a massive cost increase and stability worry. I wanted to have the option of throwing a 4x4 sheet of plywood and going to town, and if I needed to slide it a foot one way that seemed like a decent tradeoff to save workspace.

I also went with three long 40in sections of the 250mm wide sections (enough conversion confusion yet? I'm american). But I have taxes and work junk piling up with no idea when I'll actually get around to assembling it.

None of it is makerslide, in case some were wondering about stability. I got some stuff that is 60mm x 90mm, but it will look very similar to a shapeoko. I can't for the life of me just copy someone else's design, even if mine is inferior I have to mess around with it a bit. Seems to be a common problem.

cvoinescu
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Re: shakpeoko 2: expand to 1800mm x 900mm

Post by cvoinescu » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:38 pm

ALuomala wrote:As I mentioned in another post, I am of the era of Canadians that was brought up with both imperial and metric, so some habits die hard, and, well, Americans are Americans: only 3 countries in the world that use imperial, and the US is one of them. Makes me wonder why Makerslide isn't sold/marketed in feet/inches (besides the obvious answer that it is geared at engineers, who have been likely been brainwashed into using metric only). The more I try to imagine what my 1800mm x 900mm machine is going to look like (I picked these values more or less arbitrarily, based on wanting something bigger than stock, and the longest length of Makerslide that Inventables sells is 1800mm.... good thing they don't have 3000mm lengths!!! ), the more I realize I may need to do a re-think.
Which are the three countries that use imperial units?

The MakerSlide profile is metric, so it would make sense to be sold in metric lengths too. 1800 mm by 900 mm is four inches shy of the size of a twin bed, in both dimensions. Your machine would have a bed the size of a bed.

I think an 1800 mm X axis is asking for trouble. Granted, a wide machine is more usable than a narrow long one. However, the Y axis can be extended arbitrarily with little penalty, because it can be supported along its length; the X axis forms the gantry, so it needs to be stiff in its own right, which is why most large machines have the Y longer than the X. You should have no problems with a 1800 mm long Y and 900 mm wide X, if you add one or two pairs of mid-span supports for the Y axis; the other way, you'll probably find that the X flexes too much.
Proud owner of ShapeOko #709, eShapeOko #0, and of store.amberspyglass.co.uk

ALuomala
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Re: shakpeoko 2: expand to 1800mm x 900mm

Post by ALuomala » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:25 am

cvoinescu wrote: Which are the three countries that use imperial units?

The MakerSlide profile is metric, so it would make sense to be sold in metric lengths too. 1800 mm by 900 mm is four inches shy of the size of a twin bed, in both dimensions. Your machine would have a bed the size of a bed.

I think an 1800 mm X axis is asking for trouble. Granted, a wide machine is more usable than a narrow long one. However, the Y axis can be extended arbitrarily with little penalty, because it can be supported along its length; the X axis forms the gantry, so it needs to be stiff in its own right, which is why most large machines have the Y longer than the X. You should have no problems with a 1800 mm long Y and 900 mm wide X, if you add one or two pairs of mid-span supports for the Y axis; the other way, you'll probably find that the X flexes too much.
The 3 countries are: Liberia, Myanmar (formerly Burma) and the US. I actually thought that was a bit of hyperbole (likely heard it on some pop-culture type of show/movie like "Austin Powers", "American Dad!" or the like that likes to poke fun at the US), but I found one weblink (here) from 2008, but I can't be arsed to do any more research right now. Edit: I read through the comments on that blog, and I think I became about 10% stupiderer for doing so. I guess we we'll have to pry the imperial system out of some (grubby and/or chubby) cold, dead hands..... I am also dimly aware that the UK is/was holding out on some things (pints of beer comes to mind) but the hive-mind mentality at the EU (or some other org) is trying to beat them down on that...

I think what I am going to have to do is sit down and come up with reasonable examples of projects I will likely undertake (off the top of my head: a guitar body; signs for houses and businesses (what can vary obviously from smallish to ginormous, but I don't think I will be competing with professional sign-makers anytime soon); plaques for military units/people; etc). So, really my 1800mm x 900mm was a little (lot?!) on the large side, but sometimes it's hard to resist the urge to super-size something :oops: .
ShapeOko2, serial ??
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Upgrades: 900mm X axis and 1000mm Y axis; ACME Z Axis; modified MDF wasteboard with t-slot
Primary usage: wood crafting (signs, plaques, and ultimately a CNC-made electric guitar)

cvoinescu
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Re: shakpeoko 2: expand to 1800mm x 900mm

Post by cvoinescu » Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:27 am

It's not just the beer in the UK. Speed limits are in miles per hour; road distances are signposted in miles and yards; vehicle clearances are in feet and inches; fuel use is quoted in mpg, but fuel is sold in litres. Metal bar stock and various profiles are available both in metric and imperial sizes (with imperial being more prevalent, if anything). Most fasteners are metric. Electric cable cross-section is metric for mains wiring, but often AWG for data cable. At the hardware store, lumber is sold in metric sizes, but the sizes are clearly rounded metric equivalents of imperial sizes (things like 38 mm, 44 mm and 76 mm); stock lengths are multiples of 300 mm (one foot, rounded down). Plywood, MDF and plasterboard come in 2440 mm by 1220 mm sheets (8' by 4', rounded up) and thicknesses like 6 mm, 9 mm, 12 mm, 18 mm and 25 mm (suspiciously close to 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 3/4" and 1", respectively). Pipe sizes are metric, but threaded fittings are imperial (which is actually common throughout the EU). Domestic doors are 762 mm by 1981 mm, that is, exactly 30" by 78"; hinges and handles are imperial sizes too, but quoted in mm. Temperatures are universally Celsius, but wind speeds are miles per hour. Sugar and flour are sold in kilogram bags, but people quote their weight in stone and pounds. Baby weights are recorded in metric units on growth charts, but the nurses convert to pounds and ounces for the benefit of the parents. Fresh milk comes in either multiples of a pint or a litre (depending on brand, and with the metric measure quoted first even if it's something like 1.152 L), but UHT milk and fruit juice cartons are always metric. And so on -- it's a mess.
Proud owner of ShapeOko #709, eShapeOko #0, and of store.amberspyglass.co.uk

veng1
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Re: shakpeoko 2: expand to 1800mm x 900mm

Post by veng1 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:46 am

Well, the States have gone a long way towards metrication.

Everyone here knows that pennies and dimes are 1/100 and 1/10 of a dollar.

And almost everyone knows that a liter of beer is better than a pint.

Major progress.

miketedeschi
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Re: shakpeoko 2: expand to 1800mm x 900mm

Post by miketedeschi » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:01 am

ALuomala wrote: I think (for N American's anyway) that 1800mm is a bit of a mystical number, since a lot of us don't use metric for that distance (maybe for really small (3mm) or really far 42km) it is hard to imagine what 1800mm looks like.
I think most people in North America who know what "Makerslide" is (or anyone in north america that has any interest in building an open source CNC) is going to be familiar enough with the metric system to do some quick math in their head. At the very least, we can divide mm by 1000 to get meters, which is roughly yards. 1.8 meters is about 2 yards...not bad for an American, eh?
ALuomala wrote:As I mentioned in another post, I am of the era of Canadians that was brought up with both imperial and metric, so some habits die hard, and, well, Americans are Americans: only 3 countries in the world that use imperial, and the US is one of them. Makes me wonder why Makerslide isn't sold/marketed in feet/inches (besides the obvious answer that it is geared at engineers, who have been likely been brainwashed into using metric only.
If snow skis are sold in metric lengths in the USA without a problem, I think lengths of "open source extrusions" are going to be just fine. They have been teaching both imperial/metric in public school in the USA for decades; and for the Americans who don't remember how to convert metric, they will probably just buy the biggest size offered for sale. That's a Win-Win for Inventables, speaking of which is based in America.
cvoinescu wrote: I think an 1800 mm X axis is asking for trouble. Granted, a wide machine is more usable than a narrow long one. However, the Y axis can be extended arbitrarily with little penalty, because it can be supported along its length; the X axis forms the gantry, so it needs to be stiff in its own right, which is why most large machines have the Y longer than the X. You should have no problems with a 1800 mm long Y and 900 mm wide X, if you add one or two pairs of mid-span supports for the Y axis; the other way, you'll probably find that the X flexes too much.
This is great info, because I actually wondered about making the Y the longer side, but I like the idea of being able to slide a Full Sheet of wood (4'x8' or 1200x2400mm) under the machine. This may seem overkill, but you could (in multiple jobs) carve some pretty cool things into what could be a table top, later filled in with acrylic.

The good news is, I can reinforce the X later if needed, or reverse the setup if 1800mm gives me trouble on the X, I would just need another 2m of belt for the other Y motor. (wires would already all be same length as the longest one needed)

I have to try it! Ordering tomorrow.

WillAdams
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Re: shakpeoko 2: expand to 1800mm x 900mm

Post by WillAdams » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:25 am

I'll just add one note on the imperial measurement thing --- because lumber is traditionally sized in ``4''s (quarter of an inch) at the rough-cut stage, and only certain thicknesses are typically cut, selecting certain thicknesses of exotic hardwood lumber results in the awful waste of a 4/4 (1.0") board being run through a planer more than two times to get down to a particular dimension, leaving the excess wood as sawdust in un-industrial countries which can't make use of it, rather than usable material.

William
(who is still trying to track down some 5/4 Ipe or hickory)
Shapeoko 3XL #0006 w/Makita RT0701 Router w/0.125″ and ¼″ Elaire precision collets
Nomad 883 Pro #596 (bamboo)

samc99us
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Re: shakpeoko 2: expand to 1800mm x 900mm

Post by samc99us » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:31 pm

Technically the U.S is on the Metric system. U.S Government abides by it in any federal organization involved with science. Trouble is we still have these imperial fasteners, imperial street signs etc. The U.S is MUCH larger than say the U.K, and changing everyone over to KM isn't going to happen in the next two decades.

More importantly for us, material comes in inches and feet. Sure, I can divide mm by 25.4, but I do unit conversion daily. Most don't.
Modified Shapeoko 2: 1500mm fully supported y-axis, 1000 mm 4060 x-axis, ACME Belt Drive Z-axis, Dewalt DNP611, full aluminum t-slot table, 4x NEMA23 180 oz/in stepper motors driven by a G540

ALuomala
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Re: shakpeoko 2: expand to 1800mm x 900mm

Post by ALuomala » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:54 pm

WillAdams wrote:I'll say it again, I'm really sad that they discontinued the 1.2M length --- my current project had to be shrunk to 99% 'cause it wasn't quite fitting on my 1M machine.
I was reading a post somewhere here, and the topic of "CNCMogul" came up, so I took a look at their site.

As it turns out, they stock their version of MakerSlide in imperial lengths (2',3',4',8') and 4 feet works out to ~1200mm. Not sure about the shipping issues that may arise with the long versions (8 feet = 2438mm !!!).

I'm not sure if there is bad-blood between the CNCMogul/ShapeOko crew, and if posting this link is considered bad form, I will delete it.

Allan
ShapeOko2, serial ??
DW660 spindle;
Upgrades: 900mm X axis and 1000mm Y axis; ACME Z Axis; modified MDF wasteboard with t-slot
Primary usage: wood crafting (signs, plaques, and ultimately a CNC-made electric guitar)

WillAdams
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Re: shakpeoko 2: expand to 1800mm x 900mm

Post by WillAdams » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:31 pm

The ``bad blood'' is all on the other side of the fence.

My problems w/ the guy:

- he nicked a photo of MakerSlide from Inventables, didn't fess up when confronted and never apologised (and is still using the photograph --- dunno if he paid to license it or no, I did report it to Inventables)
- Doesn't attribute his machine design to Edward (which we should probably be relieved at)
- Describes MakerSlide as ``aluminum extruded rail'' --- it's only identified as MakerSlide on the product page (ditto)
- doesn't document any of his changes (he does have some interesting ideas)
- makes claims that the machine (even his modified version) can't reasonably support.

He doesn't seem to be doing well at improving his reputation or business practices either. It's pretty bad when someone is able to make a site http://www. < company name > < rude word for lacking in quality >.com about your company and it stands unchallenged and shows up on the first page of Google search results for your company name. The criticizing site raises even more concerns, given its accusations (w/ photographs and various sorts of images --- anyone who is interested should research things well).

We've had some business issues come up, but thus far, everyone has been trying to deal in good faith, and has addressed things as they've come up and we haven't had to blacklist anyone --- this guy is far out enough, and given the accusations which have been leveled, I'm hoping we can just ignore him and the problem will be solved by him going away.
Shapeoko 3XL #0006 w/Makita RT0701 Router w/0.125″ and ¼″ Elaire precision collets
Nomad 883 Pro #596 (bamboo)

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