Spindle Runout

jacob32123
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Spindle Runout

Post by jacob32123 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:12 am

I seem to be having the worst possible luck with spindles. Every single one I've tried has had unusable runout. I've verified my bits are straight with a caliper, and by rolling them on a marble counter top. Here's what I've tried so far:

DW660: Bad 1/8 collet. Would snap a 1.1mm bit instantly when begening a cut in MDF (0.3mm pass, 400mm/min, 200mm/min plunge). I didn't measure runout on it before I returned it. The 1/4 inch collet measured just fine.
Harbor Freight Rotary Tool: I tried 2 of these, and both were pathetically bad. They were far worse than the DW660. I measured .025in runout on one. Here is a video of the test. The bore of the tool had significant runout. Changing the collet made no difference. The other included collet (1/16?) was equally bad with the included drill bit.
Harbor Freight Trim Router: This one was the best. I got .009in runout (measured on the bit, right after the collet) with a brand new 1/4 inch bit. The bore in the tool measured almost no runout, leading me to believe it is the collet.

Does anyone have any suggestions? What tool(s) should I try next? All of the tools I have tried have significantly more runout than the 0.0005in mentioned at http://www.precisebits.com/tutorials/spindle_runout.htm.

Thanks,
Jacob

WillAdams
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Re: Spindle Runout

Post by WillAdams » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:25 am

What do you want to cut / mill? What's your budget?

The PreciseBits folks are oriented towards very precise work --- steel rule dies, circuit boards, very thin and delicate inlays --- if you need to do that sort of thing, then you should probably just go ahead and get a Dewalt DWP611 and a matching Precisebits collet.

Alternately, you could look into a Wolfgang Engineering 12-volt DC Spindle: http://www.wolfgangengineering.com/

Perhaps the Harbor Freight Trim Router will work out for you? I'm pondering having a custom collet machined (or getting a lathe and making one myself)
Shapeoko 3XL #0006 w/ Carbide Compact Router w/0.125″ and ¼″ Carbide 3D precision collets

jacob32123
Posts: 96
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Re: Spindle Runout

Post by jacob32123 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:05 am

WillAdams wrote:What do you want to cut / mill? What's your budget?

The PreciseBits folks are oriented towards very precise work --- steel rule dies, circuit boards, very thin and delicate inlays --- if you need to do that sort of thing, then you should probably just go ahead and get a Dewalt DWP611 and a matching Precisebits collet.

Alternately, you could look into a Wolfgang Engineering 12-volt DC Spindle: http://www.wolfgangengineering.com/

Perhaps the Harbor Freight Trim Router will work out for you? I'm pondering having a custom collet machined (or getting a lathe and making one myself)
I'd like to be able to do aluminum. I've got NEMA 23 motors, a T-slot bed, and a few other minor upgrades. The spindle really is the weak point right now. I'd like to spend <$300 on a spindle.

I suspect I'll end up with a DW611 and PreciseBits collet. The only thing that has prevented me from buying one is that (while not critical) noise is an issue for me. The DW660 was too loud to be used on full speed without disturbing the neighbors, and I've been told that the DW611 is similar.

I took a quick look at the Wolfgang Engineering spindle, but at $250 for 150 watts, it didn't seem like that great of a deal. The 800w Chinese spindles seem to be precise, quiet, and powerful, and can be purchased with an inverter for ~$380.

The trim router seems like it would be good. At $30, it seems plausible that a custom collet could be machined and still be in budget.

WillAdams
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Re: Spindle Runout

Post by WillAdams » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:09 am

People have been cutting aluminum with even the stock spindle, so the issues here are luck (can't help you, mine is like yours) and options. As I've noted before, I don't think we've found the sweet spot on spindle price-performance. I think a custom collet for the 1/4" Harbor Freight Trim Router is the hot ticket, but all my discretionary funds are sunk into a publishing venture.

Here are some thoughts:

- would people be willing enough to machine an aluminum housing for the motor from the stock rotary tool? Would that help? There are some links on the Spindle Options page which indicate it might --- or would this be a better solution for the HF TR?
- here's a post and a link showing the dimensions needed for a custom collet for the Harbor Freight 1/4" Trim Router --- no report back on how it worked out though: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cnc-r ... ost1162136

I think the problem comes down to physics and the marketplace --- neither is kind to our needs or sensitive to our costs.
Shapeoko 3XL #0006 w/ Carbide Compact Router w/0.125″ and ¼″ Carbide 3D precision collets

DanMc
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Re: Spindle Runout

Post by DanMc » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:46 pm

If noise is an issue I would look at a Chinese spindle. I'm cutting aluminum with a 300w spindle, although it is slow. If/when it goes I'll probably do another but higher wattage. I think I paid $150 for double the wattage of the Wolfgang unit. It would be nice to be able to support the Wolfgang guy as opposed to a Chinese factory, but the numbers just don't add up.

wz9v
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Re: Spindle Runout

Post by wz9v » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:29 pm

Posted by mistake.
Last edited by wz9v on Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Shapeoko 2 - Mechanical kit 4731
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MeanderBolt
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Re: Spindle Runout

Post by MeanderBolt » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:19 pm

Man I am sorry you are having such a rough time. I fought like mad with my first spindle (the one that came with my Shapeoko). So I know what you are going through, except when I upgraded to the 660 that all stopped. I wish I could offer some help here, but there is nothing that can fix a poor part. Can you take it back?
Shapeoko 2 # 3569 - DW660
Current tool chain > Draftsight > CamBam > ChiliPeppr
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jacob32123
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Re: Spindle Runout

Post by jacob32123 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:27 am

DanMc wrote:If noise is an issue I would look at a Chinese spindle. I'm cutting aluminum with a 300w spindle, although it is slow. If/when it goes I'll probably do another but higher wattage. I think I paid $150 for double the wattage of the Wolfgang unit. It would be nice to be able to support the Wolfgang guy as opposed to a Chinese factory, but the numbers just don't add up.
I totally agree. I borrowed a friend's dremel for a day (~160w), and had go significantly slower than I would with the DW660, and the Wolfgang is even less powerful.
MeanderBolt wrote:Man I am sorry you are having such a rough time. I fought like mad with my first spindle (the one that came with my Shapeoko). So I know what you are going through, except when I upgraded to the 660 that all stopped. I wish I could offer some help here, but there is nothing that can fix a poor part. Can you take it back?
It's really frustrating. It's amazing to me how flawless the Shapeoko is and that the mass produced part (the spindle) is the weak link.

Amazon took the DW660 back and refunded all my money, and Harbor Freight has taken everything back (as they always do), which is good, because it means I have spent $0 on bad spindles.

TDA
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Re: Spindle Runout

Post by TDA » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:38 pm

Anyone have the dims on the harbor freight collet? Might be made by one of the big OEMs. We had one in here once and it was very different than other units. It had horrible runout too. These ones look different though.

Be careful with the Chinese spindles. We have seen a lot of runout in the taper before. It's not usually that bad just be aware of it. It can also be fixed if you know someone with a good lathe. Also, if you want to have a laugh look at some of their ISO certs. I'll attach one. I think I found the link to the seller here actually.
Attachments
spindle ISO cert.jpg
spindle ISO cert.jpg (170.77 KiB) Viewed 6713 times
John Torrez
Think & Tinker / PreciseBits

WillAdams
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Re: Spindle Runout

Post by WillAdams » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:01 pm

TDA wrote:Anyone have the dims on the harbor freight collet?
Here're the measurements one person took, planning on having a custom collet machined to use 1/8" bits: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cnc-r ... ost1162136
Shapeoko 3XL #0006 w/ Carbide Compact Router w/0.125″ and ¼″ Carbide 3D precision collets

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