Success!! milling PCB... First PCB is and ARDUINO!!

rotor
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 11:49 am

Re: Success!! milling PCB... First PCB is and ARDUINO!!

Post by rotor » Fri May 24, 2013 5:13 pm

Very nice work !

Do you think that it is possible to produce PCB for TQFP 64 / TQFP 100 ? (lead spacing 0,5mm) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDkmtq26Hi0)
I would like to use Shapeoko to produce PCB with TQFP 64 chip and maybe TQFP100, to cut small aluminum pieces, and print 3D items with extruder (just this ! :mrgreen: ) (A project for this summer, but I need a good structure)
Can we improve precision with better step motor ?
I'm really interested about your installation. Do you have plans ? A list of parts of your improved CNC ? Links ?

Thank you

wlanfox
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:49 am

Re: Success!! milling PCB... First PCB is and ARDUINO!!

Post by wlanfox » Fri May 24, 2013 6:07 pm

rotor wrote:Very nice work !

Do you think that it is possible to produce PCB for TQFP 64 / TQFP 100 ? (lead spacing 0,5mm) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDkmtq26Hi0)
I would like to use Shapeoko to produce PCB with TQFP 64 chip and maybe TQFP100, to cut small aluminum pieces, and print 3D items with extruder (just this ! :mrgreen: ) (A project for this summer, but I need a good structure)
Can we improve precision with better step motor ?
I'm really interested about your installation. Do you have plans ? A list of parts of your improved CNC ? Links ?

Thank you
Yes I think it is possible (but not with stock ShapeOko, first thing will be to get the upgraded parts plates and z-axis upgrade,), I am currently perusing 0.1mm accuracy for routing the pads of TQFP packages. The pitch maybe 0.5mm but the routing spacing between the pins is 0.25mm, the pins themselves are 0.25mm wide.

http://www.topline.tv/Drawings/PDF/QFP/TQFP_Library.pdf

So what have I done to get there (still experimenting but closer)
1) Changed all the V-wheels form Delrin to Metal.
2) Got better spindle (no dreamer or the like, you need very low runout), experimenting with a 400W spindle.
3) Still not done working on the better resolution on axis, tried gear steppers (but backlash is too much, the 0 backlash are expensive) Next thing on the works is moving to ball-screw drive instead of belts.

the plates upgrade thread...
http://www.shapeoko.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=535

z-axis upgrade:
http://www.shapeoko.com/wiki/index.php/ACME_Z-axis

other upgrades:
http://www.shapeoko.com/wiki/index.php/Upgrade_Overview

metal v-wheels:
Image

gear steppers I tried (this one have too much backlash, I know there are some out there with very little or 0-backlash):
Image

ball-screw I am experimenting on:
Image

spindle:
Image

rotor
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 11:49 am

Re: Success!! milling PCB... First PCB is and ARDUINO!!

Post by rotor » Fri May 24, 2013 6:17 pm

Thank you very much for your answer and informations ! I will continue to search but your feedback is interesting.

I wonder if the laser is not the solution ? http://www.flickr.com/photos/rileyporte ... 393053680/
Maybe that ShapeOko is accurate enough to do this as there is no force.
But laser is dangerous and I don't know what laser power should be used.
Someone have already implemented a laser : http://www.shapeoko.com/wiki/index.php/Laser_Cutter

Sorry for my english level

canan
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:12 pm

Re: Success!! milling PCB... First PCB is and ARDUINO!!

Post by canan » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:53 pm

Hi, @wlanfox, these are some excellent designs. The milling is nearly perfect. I wonder how greatly it'll improve with a better controller. I know it's a little off topic. I was reading the thread and I was interested in knowing how you intend on using a vacuum board. I've recently been trying to buy a vacuum surface for my RF based PCB milling but:

1. It is way too expensive for me to buy personally. The price is way above $11000 which is too high.
2. The vacuum board is too heavy. In fact it is so heavy that I couldn't even move it when I tried to. Since I have my setup at the first floor, it'll be difficult for me to move it. Any suggestions would be welcomed.

wlanfox
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:49 am

Re: Success!! milling PCB... First PCB is and ARDUINO!!

Post by wlanfox » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:18 am

canan wrote:Hi, @wlanfox, these are some excellent designs. The milling is nearly perfect. I wonder how greatly it'll improve with a better controller. I know it's a little off topic. I was reading the thread and I was interested in knowing how you intend on using a vacuum board. I've recently been trying to buy a vacuum surface for my RF based PCB milling but:

1. It is way too expensive for me to buy personally. The price is way above $11000 which is too high.
2. The vacuum board is too heavy. In fact it is so heavy that I couldn't even move it when I tried to. Since I have my setup at the first floor, it'll be difficult for me to move it. Any suggestions would be welcomed.
You can actually create your own, better yet mill it in your machine so it will always be perfect high, I have myself been looking at how to do this at a cost effective price (low).. here is some really good information...



pay special attention at around 7:10... By putting the 1/2 (or thick) MFD that can be milled away to resurface it every so often, once you get down to the bottom piece another MDF can be added and drilled...

My machine is currently in pieces been busy and trying to re-do the Z axis, moving to GT2 belts and all around metal v-wheels. But once I am running again I will do this type of vacuum for PCB work, and who knows maybe this will just work for anything...

LTMNO
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:56 am

Re: Success!! milling PCB... First PCB is and ARDUINO!!

Post by LTMNO » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:51 am

very cool ... thanks for posting.. really enjoyed watching that.... great machine too... just wanted to say that.. ;-)
ShapeOko #1508, TinyG Controller, Dual Y, ACME Z-Axis, MeanWell(S-350-24v), NEMA 23's, 1m Squared t-slot table, OpenRail and the Original Z Makerslide and all Motor Plates...

pcbboardsreivew
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:55 am
Location: Shenzhen,China
Contact:

Re: Success!! milling PCB... First PCB is and ARDUINO!!

Post by pcbboardsreivew » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:47 am

This is amazing,I am learn a lot from your excellent video.As a lover for PCB manufacturer,I will try it.Thank you
experienced PCB board manufacturer

thiagokunz
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:59 pm
Location: Belem - Brazil

Re: Success!! milling PCB... First PCB is and ARDUINO!!

Post by thiagokunz » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:07 am

Hi wlanfox, Hi group!

That's amazing. I Bought my Shapoko 2 with the intention to make PCBs. I'was so amazed when I Saw a video on youtube showing the processe of milling a PCB. I'm just starting in electronics, but I'll do what I can to help.

Well, I've done a little research about the processes of making a PCB. And I will put it here. If there is a better place to do it, Please Notify me. I'm new to the group.


Z Probing



Edward Ford thought the precision of the copper plated boards were good, but they're not precise because the bigger companies use chemical processes, not mechanical ones. It's faster and cheaper (but I think it is less eco friendly). So, I've found some videos of 3d printers using this method. The first video use hal sensors, the second, touching a metal heating bed. The last one is a project from Atntias, and he's implementing this at Printrun (a gcode sender for 3d printers). His work is being hosted at https://github.com/Atntias/probz and http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:18468. This process generates a image of the differences of hight all over the pcb. This seems to be critical to avoid breaking a drill and to etch the complete board, at the correct depth.

Image


Two Sided PCBs

This video totally made me buy my Shapeoko (I know, it's another milling machine :roll: ). But this guy shows how to drill some holes to align the two sides. Making 2 sided pcbs It's so incredible. We can do lots of useful stuff, like Arduinos, Gshields, Ramps shields etc. But it isn't because of the vias.




Making Vias and Multilayered PCBs

When you drill the holes in a multisided pcb, some are just holes, and some are Vias. The vias are connections between 2 or more layers of copper, with the intention of conduct electricity or heat (as we can see in the opposite side of drv8818 ICs in Gshield)

Image
Image

The problem is: when you drill a hole through the PCB, it passes one layer of coper, one layer of dielectric material (faber glass, and others) and other layer of copper the hole doesn't transmit energy from one side to another. You must have a conductive material, such as copper. When I understood that, I searched the web to find how the guys make the vias. And it is an Electrolytic Process. But the electrolytic process also must have a conductive material to deposit copper on the walls of the hole.



I've found a guy teaching how to create a thin layer of conductive material in the non conductive holes. This two videos are long, but it's worth the effort. They show how to make a solution of copper sulfate and calcium hypophosphate, placing the pcb at a oven to dry, and after this, the electrolytic process that will create the copper wall connecting the sides. With multilayered PCBs the process is similar, but more complex. You will start from the inner layers, and sandwich them with the others with a press. You can see the entire process in this video below. At this level, we can make smaller boards. The new controller used in the Ultimaker 2 3d printer have 4 layers. I was told that motherboard also have multilayered pcbs. It's possible to make 64 layers in just one pcb, maybe more.




Workflow

I'm not experienced in this area but I saw some guys using softwares or plugins to convert gerber or exellon files to gcode.
one of them is Py Gerber 2 Gcode (https://code.google.com/p/pygerber2gcode/). Another I've found very interesting is the Eagle plugin PCB Gcode http://pcbgcode.org/list.php?12). That's amazing because you can design your pcb in eagle and with some clicks you have your gcode (imagine when you could just mill directly from Eagle? A dream!) and Eagle is supported in Linux, OSX and Windows. I've made a test with it and it generates two files for each layer of the design, one .drill.tap and other .etch.tap. They are gcodes with other extension that I have never seen. You can even set the epsilon therefore you can work within universal gcode sender's 70 characters limit.
Captura de Tela 2014-02-19 às 03.14.55.png
The design I made to connect the steppers to a Ribbon cable connector.
Captura de Tela 2014-02-19 às 03.14.55.png (94.57 KiB) Viewed 5392 times
Image
Captura de Tela 2014-02-19 às 02.43.03.png
Two files created
Captura de Tela 2014-02-19 às 02.43.03.png (18.59 KiB) Viewed 5392 times
Captura de Tela 2014-02-19 às 02.46.56.png
Gcode header
Captura de Tela 2014-02-19 às 02.46.56.png (105.91 KiB) Viewed 5392 times



Well, I'm sorry for the enormous text, and if I committed some gramatical mistakes. I'm so excited to make my own PCBs and I'm eager to learn from the community.
Thanks.

Nigel K Tolley
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:06 pm

Re: Success!! milling PCB... First PCB is and ARDUINO!!

Post by Nigel K Tolley » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:38 am

I don't think g code cares what extension the file had any more than a text editor - it just assumes it is g code.

As for the vias, could you not just make the hole a bit wider and use the leg of the component and solder to do it? How many are there typically? Could you not use a small wire?

Just some thoughts.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

MeanderBolt
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Location: Georgia
Contact:

Re: Success!! milling PCB... First PCB is and ARDUINO!!

Post by MeanderBolt » Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:20 pm

Hey thiagokunz,
That's a good post, and has a lot of good info. A couple of things to mention, for the DIY side of the world, the chemical direction is not the fastest route, especially if you are trying to do 2 sided boards. There is a lot of blood, sweat, and tears when trying to do 2 sided boards. As for vias, I use a very thin wire (single strand wire left over from a phone system installation). For the vias, I usually choose a drill that is just about big enough for this wire. I then strip off the insulation so it is just one long bit of shiny wire and I literally weave all the via holes. I keep a print out with a pattern that I have penned in so I do not miss any, and so that I do not go through the wrong hole. After all the holes are filled with the wire, I solder both sides of the board, then trim with flush snips. This is by no means a fast process.

I too wanted the Shapeoko for PCB one offs n such. Aside from using it for the etching, I think the time savings and accuracy in drilling the holes is what I am excited about. Drilling 80+ little teeny tiny holes can make your eyes go blurry.
Nigel K Tolley wrote:As for the vias, could you not just make the hole a bit wider and use the leg of the component and solder to do it

You could, but doing this one at a time would be a mind numbing process. Also, you can not go too big on the drill as it could eat the whole via ring. This makes the soldering process more tricky as you have to solder to the trace next to the hole, not the ring as you would normally do. In a tight spot, this can be hard because depending on which way the traces run, the wire may want to misbehave as the solder will liquefy on both sides of the board. Better to keep it small and use a thin wire.
Nigel K Tolley wrote:How many are there typically?
This all depends on the design. I spend a lot of time trying to be efficient with my traces and use the least amount of VIAs as possible because they are a PITA to wire up. Also, I am very cautious not put a via too close to anything else, and never (if I can help it) under another component. I had an early design where I had vias under a chip. This is common in manufactured boards, but not cool for home brew. I coulple of years ago, I wrote a post on my blog about how I make mine if you are interested.
Shapeoko 2 # 3569 - DW660
Current tool chain > Draftsight > CamBam > ChiliPeppr
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