Need help figuring things out

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kyorinsuu
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Need help figuring things out

Post by kyorinsuu » Thu May 16, 2013 3:42 am

Hi guys I'm new to the Shapeoko community and I'm pretty interested in building one. I'm a bit lost in terms of electronics and some of the materials needed to complete the build and would really be grateful if someone could help me.
Right now I'm thinking of buying the $225 kit with a pair of 1m Makerslide to get a longer cutting area plus a 2nd motor mount for the gantry. So far no problem, I was thinking of using 5 Nema 23 for the motors since we have 4 of the ones Inventables sells in stock here in our shop so i was thinking of buying the Nema 23 mount for the Z axis to allow me to mount it. So here is where things get a bit problematic I have an old desktop I can use dedicated for the Shapeoko plus it already has Mach3 since it was used before for a CNC Mill/Lathe combo. What I wanted to know was how to make this build work with that computer and Mach3 instead of GRBL? What can I use as a power supply for all of these components?
What would be the ebst spindle to use between the DW660 and the DWP611? Can any of these cut things like aluminum? Is there any spindle that already brings a way to control the speed or would i have to buy a SuperPID?

So I guess apart from this my other questions are:
If I put Z axis upgrade kit will I not be able to put a Nema 23 Z axis kit?
Does anyone sell mounts for the DWP611? and a dust shoe?
What are good end mills to buy 1/8, 1/16 or what? & where do you buy from?

Thanks in advance to everyone and hopefully ill be able to make this awesome build =P

cvoinescu
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Re: Need help figuring things out

Post by cvoinescu » Thu May 16, 2013 8:19 am

Unless your NEMA23 motors have 5 mm shafts (those exist but are rare), you'll need the 1/4" (6.35 mm) bore belt pulleys for the X and Y axes, and a 6.35 mm to 8 mm flexible coupler for the Z axis.

IMO, there's little point in using a NEMA23 on Z, except if you already have the motor and want to avoid buying a NEMA17. If you're getting the ACME screw upgrade, though, you may actually be better off buying a NEMA17 for the Z instead of a NEMA23 upgrade. The person to ask about how these play together is Improbable Construct.

The DW660 has no speed control, but can be mounted in the stock spindle mounts, at least well enough to mill a proper holder for itself. I don't remember whether the DWP661 has speed control -- check the specs. Both can mill aluminum, but the dual-X upgrade is a good idea in that case, because it helps make the machine itself more rigid. Both spindles are rather heavy for the stock Shapeoko, but they're great if you have dual Y drive and, ideally, dual X rail. I think the DWP661 is, technically, the better spindle, but the DW660 is very nice too. Both are very, very loud.

I buy endmills from drillman1 on ebay. Start with a straight 1/8" endmill, it's much less fragile than a 1/16".

About the power supply: you did not mention any drivers. Depending on the drivers and the motors, a 24 V supply at 7..10 A would probably work. I'm assuming your motors are the smallest NEMA23s. It would not make sense to put anything larger on a Shapeoko.
Proud owner of ShapeOko #709, eShapeOko #0, and of store.amberspyglass.co.uk

Improbable Construct
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Re: Need help figuring things out

Post by Improbable Construct » Thu May 16, 2013 6:01 pm

You have a few choices for a controller and power supply.
If you search Ebay you can find many 4 axis TB6560 based controllers.
I was using this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TB6560-4-AXIS-C ... 43bb136314
It lasted almost a year before one of the wires broke out of the connector, touched the power lead, and fried one of the drivers.
It is probably repairable but I haven't tried yet.
It was my fault that it happened. I recommend that controller as a cheap way to get mach3 working with shapeoko.
That controller works nicely with a 24 power supply like this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Switching-Power-S ... wer+supply
Right now I am running a Gecko Drives G540. It is almost 4 times the cost of the TB6560 driver plus you need an enclosure and a 48v power supply.
The G540 does deliver better performance but is probably not worth the price.

As far as spindles go,
The DW660 is a great little spindle. It comes with 1/8" and 1/4" collets and is inexpensive at $55.00 or so. It can be used with a mostly stock shapeoko and give very good results.
The DWP611 is also very nice but a bit pricey at $125.00. It has an electronic speed control built in but only comes with a 1/4" collet. To use a 1/8" bit you will have to get a reducer sleeve or Precise Bits sells a precision collet set for about $100.00.
For most things I end up running the spindle at 30000 RPM so a speed control is probably not necessary right off the bat. You may find you need one for a specific material but I would wait and see.
There are drawings for the DW660 dust shoe on the wiki and they are also for sale on the upgrades page.
I have a dust shoe / air deflector on my DWP611 that is in development. I am on version 2 and I think version 3 will be a keeper.

The ACME Z axis upgrade and the Nema 23 mount kit will work together or separately with all stock shapeoko parts.

As cvoinescu said the Double X rail is a good idea and I think it is really a requirement for either of the DeWalt spindles.
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kyorinsuu
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Re: Need help figuring things out

Post by kyorinsuu » Thu May 16, 2013 11:46 pm

Well the Nema 23 motors we have here are exactly the same model as these https://www.inventables.com/technologie ... or-nema-23 so im not sure what i will need to make this work.
I'm trying to save as much money so i guess ill use these if i can instead of the Nema 17.

Improbable Construct thanks for the link you saved me a lot of hassle. I was wondering if maybe you could help me a bit with the setup with Mach3? Oh and just to tell you guys since im buying the stock kit and extra 1m extrusions i was thinking of using 2 - 375mm to make the double X axis and put 1m to on the Y axis with double Nema 23 motors. I was thinking of using a DWP611 just because of the ability to have a speed control built in but i guess maybe ill reconsider depending on budget.

I don't really remember much of what i wanted to ask right now so I guess ill try to remember and post it later once again thanks for all the help so far.

kyorinsuu
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Re: Need help figuring things out

Post by kyorinsuu » Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:02 am

Hey guys i finally received the emergency switch, motor driver board, power supply and i was wondering if you guys can help me out with the remainder parts. I was thinking of buying a standard mechanical kit with the dual Y kit and 2 extruded makerslide of 1m long to increase the size of Y and use the 375mm to make a dual X. is it possible? The only item that changes is the belt right? I need a bigger one? or is there something else i have to change? Also as i said before i have 4 nema 23 like the ones that inventable sells. I was wondering if these will work or what mods would i have to use to install them. If not can i use maybe 3 and just buy 1 nema 17 for the Z drive? What else can you guys tell me that should be a must on this? Im still not sure of which spindle but i think ill use a DWP611 or a DW660.

Thanks in advance if anyone could maybe help me make this setup ill be really grateful =P

WillAdams
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Re: Need help figuring things out

Post by WillAdams » Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:08 am

kyorinsuu wrote:Hey guys i finally received the emergency switch, motor driver board, power supply
That's all the stuff that mystifies me.
and i was wondering if you guys can help me out with the remainder parts. I was thinking of buying a standard mechanical kit with the dual Y kit and 2 extruded makerslide of 1m long to increase the size of Y and use the 375mm to make a dual X. is it possible?
That's exactly what I and several other people did --- it's very cost-efficient. (I did do a Drive Shaft instead of dual motors)
The only item that changes is the belt right? I need a bigger one? or is there something else i have to change?
Pretty much, but, in addition to more belting (7 or 8ft. --- see note on the wiki):

- more wire (I needed almost twice my initial 11ft. estimate)
- cable management becomes a necessity at the larger sizes
- belt tension requires more control IME --- I found eye bolts essential to this
- larger bed --- a torsion box or something much stiffer than a sheet of particle board --- weight becomes an issue and the machine goes from awkward, to difficult to move
- I also re-tapped my MakerSlide and used longer bolts

Photos of my machine from the wiki:

Image Image see also http://www.shapeoko.com/wiki/index.php/User:Willadams

There are more photos of machines in this (popular!) configuration in the forums.
Also as i said before i have 4 nema 23 like the ones that inventable sells. I was wondering if these will work or what mods would i have to use to install them. If not can i use maybe 3 and just buy 1 nema 17 for the Z drive?
Your choice:

- NEMA 23 for z-axis needs a new plate / hardware --- I.C. sells them on the Upgrades page for $25:
NEMA 23 Z-Axis Kit http://www.shapeoko.com/upgrades
- NEMA 17 needs a motor

The other mount plates have holes for both NEMA 17 and 23.

I don't think the lose of power / symmetry is worth the minimal savings. ISTR cvoinescu commented at length on motor choices, but haven't found it since I failed to copy it to the wiki.
What else can you guys tell me that should be a must on this? Im still not sure of which spindle but i think ill use a DWP611 or a DW660.
You haven't mentioned dust collection, workholding, whether or no you'll fasten the dual X together, inverting belts, metal spacers --- that last is a huge value, esp. if bought in bulk as opposed to pairs from Lowes / Home Depot.

You'll need spindle mounts --- not sure if the DW660 fits in the default mounts or no.

You should also stock up on zip ties, M5 bolts and washers, M3 washers....

HTH!
Shapeoko 3XL #0006 w/Makita RT0701 Router w/0.125″ and ¼″ Elaire precision collets
Nomad 883 Pro #596 (bamboo)

kyorinsuu
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Re: Need help figuring things out

Post by kyorinsuu » Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:39 am

Well first off thanks for replying so quick. Anyways im pretty much lost on what I should do. I was even thinking of buying an eShapeoko kit to avoid some upgrades and get the open end plates but lol not sure how that would turn out.
I guess i can buy a Nema 17 for the Z axis and keep 3 Nema 23 for the rest but about what you said before "whether or no you'll fasten the dual X together, inverting belts, metal spacers" Im not sure since this is the first time Ive tried something like this not sure what would work better or what would improve the machine.

As for the spindle I think i might go for the DWP611 and buy the collect set. Does anyone have CAD Drawings for mounts or does anyone sell these?

Just to add a little more info of why I'm making this and why im so intrested on CNC machines. Well curently my college has put a lock on pretty much all of the machinery we had available to make our projects. So to avoid this I decided to use my remainder of a loan i took to get the tools necessary to avoid asking for the tool room. We are currently trying to cut carbon fiber, wood, aluminum and mild steel & all sorts of plastics. I know most likely steel is pushing it but heck if i can get 4 out of 5 it would help a lot.


Things i got so far:

TB6560 4 axis controller
120v-230v Receptacle Power Socket
24V 15A 360W power supply
Emergency mushroom push button
4 - Nema 23 motors
tons of 1/4" end mills will buy some 1/8" and 1/6" eventually.

WillAdams
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Re: Need help figuring things out

Post by WillAdams » Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:58 am

kyorinsuu wrote:Well first off thanks for replying so quick. Anyways im pretty much lost on what I should do. I was even thinking of buying an eShapeoko kit to avoid some upgrades and get the open end plates but lol not sure how that would turn out.
It would turn out fine, but shipping and customs might be an issue.
I guess i can buy a Nema 17 for the Z axis and keep 3 Nema 23 for the rest
That will work fine and is a slight savings which will leave you with a spare motor.
but about what you said before "whether or no you'll fasten the dual X together, inverting belts, metal spacers" Im not sure since this is the first time Ive tried something like this not sure what would work better or what would improve the machine.
Those are all potential upgrades which can be done later, so research them at your leisure, though I would suggest getting the metal spacers for your initial build. It adds just a few dollars when ordering the machine and is a huge improvement. Other than the spacers, an initial default machine configuration is a valuable learning experience.
As for the spindle I think i might go for the DWP611 and buy the collect set. Does anyone have CAD Drawings for mounts or does anyone sell these?
Here: http://www.shapeoko.com/forum/viewtopic ... 222#p10094 (added to the wiki)

I think I.C. is planning to sell them on the http://www.shapeoko.com/upgrades page.
Just to add a little more info of why I'm making this and why im so intrested on CNC machines. Well curently my college has put a lock on pretty much all of the machinery we had available to make our projects.
That's a shame. Was it 'cause of a certain news story recently where a student worked alone?
So to avoid this I decided to use my remainder of a loan i took to get the tools necessary to avoid asking for the tool room. We are currently trying to cut carbon fiber, wood, aluminum and mild steel & all sorts of plastics. I know most likely steel is pushing it but heck if i can get 4 out of 5 it would help a lot.
It's physics which preclude steel --- might be able to do a single pass engraving, but I suspect the expense of burnt up tooling would have one buying a Sherline or similar.

snip

Sounds like a kit, a NEMA 17, a few upgrade parts, some wiring, zip ties and some parts and hardware will have you up and running.

Do you have or could you borrow a rotary tool? Looks like you're all set except for the mount --- I'd suggest just making one up by hand if you can't score a tool, or using a ``Clamping U-Bolt Steel'' like the original kits used --- see http://www.shapeoko.com/wiki/index.php/Parts#Tooling (but you'll need a different size).
Shapeoko 3XL #0006 w/Makita RT0701 Router w/0.125″ and ¼″ Elaire precision collets
Nomad 883 Pro #596 (bamboo)

kyorinsuu
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Re: Need help figuring things out

Post by kyorinsuu » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:18 pm

I currently have a Dremel 4000 and have access to a Milling machine so i guess i can make them out of aluminum or pretty much anything if needed.

The eShapeoko idea was to buy pretty much everything from the start to avoid buying extra parts and then throwing away some. But yeah i guessed as much that the shipping would be troublesome.

The motor i guess i can find a use for the remaining motor so that wont be a problem if it becomes a spare.

Upgrades I would love to implement them all from the start, do you have any links for the inverted belt since its the only one i haven't read about in the posts i have found?

WillAdams
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Re: Need help figuring things out

Post by WillAdams » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:24 pm

Inverted belts are to be the default on the next iteration. They're already standard on the eShapeOko.

Discussion here: http://www.shapeoko.com/forum/viewtopic ... 227&p=1709
Shapeoko 3XL #0006 w/Makita RT0701 Router w/0.125″ and ¼″ Elaire precision collets
Nomad 883 Pro #596 (bamboo)

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