What is the ShapeOko 3 surprise?

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chamnit
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Re: What is the ShapeOko 3 surprise?

Post by chamnit » Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:49 pm

@cvoinescu : Just wanted to chime in to address the ARM port speculation. There isn't one (right now). What's been surprising is that, over the past year of observing people testing Grbl v0.9, it has been amazingly capable on the 328p to the point that you really don't need additional MCU speed (ARM) to accomplish just about everything you'd need on a hobby CNC machine. It really doesn't give you that much more capability as the code stands now. I would argue, when coupled with a good GUI, Grbl doesn't need much more, outside overrides and maybe laser cutter support.

That being said, there are a lot of things that the additional CPU cycles that an ARM can help with, but these things are highly algorithmic and entirely new in nature. I'm investing a ton of time and energy in developing these, but this will take a lot of time (and testing) before a general release.

cvoinescu
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Re: What is the ShapeOko 3 surprise?

Post by cvoinescu » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:24 pm

Darn.
Proud owner of ShapeOko #709, eShapeOko #0, and of store.amberspyglass.co.uk

Sisco
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Re: What is the ShapeOko 3 surprise?

Post by Sisco » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:36 pm

LTEPM wrote:What's the "ComMotion" about?

Is it 4 drive motor capable and able to handle NEMA23?
The Nema 23 support is already built in, so not part of the surprise...

From the Shapeoko blog @ http://www.shapeoko.com/blog/archives/1404

"Shapeoko 3 ships with powerful nema17 motors, but if you want to add even more power, all 3 axis will accept NEMA23 form factor, without modification."
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WillAdams
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Re: What is the ShapeOko 3 surprise?

Post by WillAdams » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:12 pm

I'd read that to indicate that the mechanics were in place --- motor holes and plates, but can see how it might indicate electronics support (including power supply?).
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Sisco
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Re: What is the ShapeOko 3 surprise?

Post by Sisco » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:21 pm

WillAdams wrote:I'd read that to indicate that the mechanics were in place --- motor holes and plates, but can see how it might indicate electronics support (including power supply?).
The "all 3 axis will accept NEMA23 form factor, without modification." makes me assume it's just a matter of mounting the new steppers and wiring them up to the existing electronics.

Perhaps Edward could clarify?

Rick
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akhlut
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Re: What is the ShapeOko 3 surprise?

Post by akhlut » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:47 pm

@chamnit I couldn't agree more. I'm mystified at the desire for an ARM port of GRBL. Where exactly does the 328 fall down for these hobbyist CNC machines? Faster 3D printers for sure can benefit from ARM, but hobbyist CNC? Even something like the tinyg - how much of a performance gain is there? I just don't see the benefit of it.

As far as the future, I'm happy to see GRBL eventually moving toward higher-end processors to provide additional features that better, stiffer machines can take advantage of. I can't help but wonder if an arduino target even makes sense anymore considering the legal wrangling currently going on. arduino.cc and arduino.org are both arduino, and they're fighting it out in court.
http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=261652.0
http://hackaday.com/2015/02/25/arduino-v-arduino/

:(

chamnit
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Re: What is the ShapeOko 3 surprise?

Post by chamnit » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:20 pm

@akhlut: I would argue that even 3d printers wouldn't benefit from ARM that much. Given that Grbl can run 35000mm/min on a ShapeOko, speed isn't the issue. At high speeds, dynamics and inertial forces dominate motion. The Ultimaker 2 solves it somewhat by making a lighter print head, but that will only go so far. As far as I know, 3d printers all use a variant of Marlin, which is a direct descendent of Grbl and run on AVR mega (same clock speed as 328s).

With TinyG, they admirably try to solve these inertial problems with 3rd order motion control, but the math is incomplete and only captures a narrow window of scenarios. The math problem with 3rd order motion control is surprisingly complex and highly nonlinear. It really does require the processing power of an ARM, if it is at all possible to do it in real-time robustly and right.

As for Arduino, I agree. It's a horrible mess. When money gets involved, things can get really nasty, quick. I've already started taking some steps to make sure that the next-gen of Grbl will not have these legal issues and isn't strictly dependent on Arduino in the future. But, I've always viewed Arduino as a means to an end due to its ubiquity and high accessibility. That may change sooner than later with what's going on.

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Re: What is the ShapeOko 3 surprise?

Post by Gadgetman! » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:42 pm

What a mess.

Maybe it's time to look for alternative platforms?
The Parallax Propeller II will be out 'soon'...
(By the end of the year, hopefully)

I know the first gen has been used to run a rather fast 3D printer.
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Re: What is the ShapeOko 3 surprise?

Post by WillAdams » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:55 pm

I've been using a Smoothieboard, well an Azteeg X5 mini, for 3D printing and will probably try using it for milling.

ls there an historical overview/ family tree of the various firmwares?
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chamnit
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Re: What is the ShapeOko 3 surprise?

Post by chamnit » Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:34 pm

@WillAdams : I became lead developer of Grbl in 2011 (v0.7, v0.8, v0.9). So anything prior I don't have much knowledge, but at the time maybe 2009-ish, there were a ton of firmwares that came and went like Arduino GCode Interpreter (I think Grbl is based on this), Teacup, Sailfish. Simen, the original Grbl developer up until 2011 (- v0.6), came out with a rudimentary look-ahead planner that worked with some caveats and was well written. That changed everything. I came along and fixed the mathematics behind it. At point, people started to notice because it worked.

Soon after, Marlin (also based on Sprinter), Smoothieware, Lasersaur, and a host of others were forked. Maybe around 2011-2012 and was my first release of Grbl v0.7. TinyG didn't fork Grbl, but developed their own version of Grbl's core concepts in parallel. However, I wish that Marlin would merged Grbl's new motion control core, because they are still using the old v0.7 core, warts and all. It would greatly improve performance I would think.

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