Shapeoko 3 - Expansion Packs

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WillAdams
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Re: Shapeoko 3 - Expansion Packs

Post by WillAdams » Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:36 pm

chamnit wrote: I'm not sure if a 9' length for an 8'x machine would be feasible. Doing a quick check it looks like Fedex Home delivery has a 108" length limit and a 70lb weight limit. Just on the edge of what's possible. Also, I don't think beam will perform that well at 9'. It'll work, but it'll start to act like a long noodle. Just like how the SO2/Xcarve Makerslides do that at 1m or greater.
...
EDIT: I'll eat my words. After thinking about it, 8' should work fine, if it's on the Y-axis with two beams. You'll likely need supports along the length to help keep it rigid.
That's exactly what I was going to ask after.

Moreover, we do have that latter point asked on the wiki:
http://www.shapeoko.com/wiki/index.php/Shapeoko_3#Questions wrote:What sort of side supports will be possible along the Y-axis?
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chamnit
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Re: Shapeoko 3 - Expansion Packs

Post by chamnit » Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:45 pm

WillAdams wrote: That's exactly what I was going to ask after.

Moreover, we do have that latter point asked on the wiki:
http://www.shapeoko.com/wiki/index.php/Shapeoko_3#Questions wrote:What sort of side supports will be possible along the Y-axis?
Structurally, you first need two good, solid anchors at the ends of the beam that prevents twisting and any flexing. When a beam gets longer, you need a solid anchor point at the midspan, which is good. It improves vibration-resistance and stiffness characteristics. Even better is two solid anchor points evenly spaced along the span. Anymore, doesn't help as much.

With those length-span anchors, Twisting of the y-axis isn't that much of a concern, just from the design of the machine and having two rails. You only need good lateral and up/down stiffness at these points. Drilling into the non-v-rail side of the beam in the center of the beam wall will have no effect on the beam structurally. You can bolt the anchors there without a problem.

The only thing you have to worry about when adding mid-span anchors is not warping the beam out of straightness or twist it. It's easy to do if you tighten down a bolt too much.

WillAdams
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Re: Shapeoko 3 - Expansion Packs

Post by WillAdams » Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:47 pm

For side supports, would it be worth the effort to put a drilled-and-tapped steel plate inside the extrusion and attach the connector to that? I figure one could:

- drill holes
- put tapped steel plate in an open end
- drag into position using a magnet
- adjust and fasten as necessary

If so, optimal size / shape?
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chamnit
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Re: Shapeoko 3 - Expansion Packs

Post by chamnit » Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:59 pm

I don't think it's necessary to add backing steel-plates inside. If you every remove a bolt, it'd be a major headache to get it back into position. As far as I understand, the walls of the extrusions are fairly thick and can hold several threads.

If the extruded aluminum wall can't hold a thread dependably by either being too thin and/or not being hardened, it's possible to use things called HeliCoils. They are easy to install, just like tapping a normal thread, but require a special, expensive kit. I use them at work all of the time to strengthen aluminum and titanium fastening locations. Their breaking strength exceeds the actual steel bolts themselves and never ever come out.

Georgei
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Re: Shapeoko 3 - Expansion Packs

Post by Georgei » Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:29 pm

If the walls are very thin you can also use Rivet nuts. They are available in different threads.

Brian Stone
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Re: Shapeoko 3 - Expansion Packs

Post by Brian Stone » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:00 pm

edwardrford wrote:After much ado, we've started looking into the expansion packs (as promised) and are laying out a tentative schedule to get expansion packs available by the end of summer / early fall. Which, where I live roughly equates to September/October.
That might be great timing for me. I'd set up a plan to expand my SO2 sometime end of summer, but I wouldn't mind waiting a bit longer if I can get my hands on an SO3 and extend it. For my money, I'd rather do that.
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Dave
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Re: Shapeoko 3 - Expansion Packs

Post by Dave » Sat May 09, 2015 7:54 am

edwardrford wrote:After much ado, we've started looking into the expansion packs (as promised) and are laying out a tentative schedule to get expansion packs available by the end of summer / early fall. Which, where I live roughly equates to September/October.
...
These are the only extrusions we have beyond the stock size, so they're worth their weight in gold right now. As time allows we'll start working them into R&D to find out what the packages will consist of. Currently, we're thinking an X expansion pack, a Y expansion pack, and a full kit.
Are there plans to sell a Shapeoko 3 kit that includes the longer length extrusions from the start, without needing to buy the 'normal' kit plus the expansion pack(s) separately? (This would effectively be the Shapeoko 3 option for people who would otherwise be looking at the 1000mm X-Carve.)

For those of us who haven't pre-ordered yet, but know we will need a larger machine, that's a lot of large parts in the standard kit that would never be used if the expansion had to be purchased separately. A "large size" kit would save $$$ on both materials and shipping. 8-)

WillAdams
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Re: Shapeoko 3 - Expansion Packs

Post by WillAdams » Sat May 09, 2015 12:15 pm

Yeah, we’ve talked about that a bit in the various discussions on expanding the machine. Esp. See http://www.shapeoko.com/forum/viewtopic ... 600#p41850

The ideal to me (after adding Dave's 24" suggestion) would be:

- SO3 full kit — what’s currently shipping — despite the poll, this will probably be the most prevalent design
- SO3 mechanical kit — nothing but end plates and hardware (except for M5x16mm used in the base, see below) and the tools
- SO3 electronics — Carbide Motion micro-controller/stepper driver and motors and pulleys and power supply and USB cable (I’d really like to see that be a premium, 6 foot cord w/ferrite bead(s)
- SO3X — 600mm rail, matching front/back plates and cross strap (S3067)
- SO3Y — 2 600mm rails, 2 edge straps (S3063), 1 center strap (S3064)
- SO3X+ — 1 rail long enough for a ~24” work area (exact length to be determined), matching front/back plates and cross strap, motor extension cables
- SO3X++ — 1 rail long enough for a 48"—60” work area (exact length to be determined), matching front/back plates and cross strap, motor extension cables
- SO3Y+ — 2 rails (same length as in SO3X+), 2 edge straps, 1 center strap
- SO3X++Y+ext — this would need to be added when both an SO3X++Y+ were combined — a suitable number of additional center (central?) straps — probably better as just a combined SKU
- SO3Y++ — 2 rails long enough to make a 96" long work area, 2 edge straps, 1 center strap, 4 side supports and suitable hardware
- SO3X++Y++ext — see one less plus above

You’d need a mechanism for calculating how many M5x16mms were needed.

That’s a lot of SKUs, but not a lot of machine sizes (note that 48 might be 60 or some number in-between or slightly larger):

- 16 x 16
- 16w x 48
- 16w x 96
- 24w x 16
- 24w x 48
- 24w x 96
- 48w x 16
- 48 x 48
- 48w x 96

The problem is, that’s only barely more machines than SKUs... I really doubt that a reasonable number of people would build the

- 16w x 96
- 24w x 96

machines that the additional SKUs enable, so might as well cut to the chase and just offer 6 machine kits? (and a reasonable number of expansion kits for people who want to upgrade?) — the two ext SKUs would probably be better folded into the matching kits — I don’t think eliminating the extra lengths of steel when doing the smaller option would save much (and I don't think it'd be worth doing the 16ext and 24ext options as noted above --- I guess worst case those parts could be sold separately).

I think it would be better to require people buying expansion kits to self-source a Wasteboard — could one have a fixture which would fit over a PEM nut and allow drilling a pilot hole w/o damaging the threads? If so, assemble the frame, have the Wasteboard cut at a home center, clamp the frame and Wasteboard together on two tables, arrange so hole is over empty space, drill pilot hole from below, drill and countersink hole from top, insert fastener, repeat. Loosen all fasteners before installing Y-axis rails.

That of course assumes that the frame design is sufficiently rigid to stand up to the sort of abuse that sort of thing would invite. I’m certain it would work at the two 48x16 sizes, and think it’d be okay at 48x48, but the 48 x 96 size worries me —one could get a lot of leverage by lifting the machine at a single corner and I’d worry about stripping out the steel fasteners in the aluminum extrusions. I suspect that we’re going to need some sort of formed / bent / tubular steel along the Y-axis at the two longer sizes — therefore, I nominate the 48w x 16 kit for initial development and testing and volunteer to try out an early prototype.

If it weren’t for that sort of thing, I’d think we could do a modular Wasteboard in standard sections, but the shipping costs on that for the large sizes would become a problem.

Anyone got a brilliant design concept for a torsion box / frame / bed at a suitable size?
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woodworkerbob
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Re: Shapeoko 3 - Expansion Packs

Post by woodworkerbob » Sat May 09, 2015 3:59 pm

WillAdams wrote:Yeah, we’ve talked about that a bit in the various discussions on expanding the machine. Esp. See http://www.shapeoko.com/forum/viewtopic ... 600#p41850

Anyone got a brilliant design concept for a torsion box / frame / bed at a suitable size?
Maybe something made with cut to length maker slides and Home Depot 3/4" MDF. Maker slides will hold their flatness during shipping. Perhaps a paper template of drilling locations into the MDF for mounting on to the slides, or just a dimensional drawing.

Bob
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veng1
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Re: Shapeoko 3 - Expansion Packs

Post by veng1 » Sat May 09, 2015 4:29 pm

I don't know how strong it is quantitatively but one of the strongest things I've found to make a table across a couple of sawhorses is a hollow core door.

They are often available as surplus or seconds dirt cheap. Find one at a liquidators, block it up at each end, put a bag of builder's sand on it and measure the deflection. If it isn't what you want just don't buy it.

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